Need some clarification please...

[Reformationist]

One of your fellow EO stated "The Church as a whole is infalliable, not a man, or certain men. The appointed men decide on certain things but the WHOLE CHURCH must accept their decisions for them to be considered infalliable."

He also stated that, "No decision, when made, is said to be infalliable, but must stand through time and be accepted by the Church as a whole to be pronounced infallible."

Please, if you are inclined, explain whether these claims accurately represent your church's teachings on the issue of infallibility.

I would appreciate it if the person who made those statements refrain from answering as it is obvious that he already feels that those statements are in keeping with his church's views.

Thank you,
God bless

 

[Knowledge3]

The universal Orthodox Church as a whole is infallible by right of seven full Ecumenical Councils.

She is an organ and intimate of Vessel of unity in the body of Christ.

 

[MariaRegina]

Hi, long time no see!

The teaching about infallibility is best described in Bishop KALLISTOS Ware's book, The Orthodox Church (1993).

p. 251-4 infallibility of councils

p. 248-9 infallibility of the Church

p. 49 infallibility of the Pope



If you would go over to www.byzcath.org and ask that question of Father Anthony, an admin there, you would get a better answer.

 

[MariaRegina]

Also check www.oca.org.

 

[Knowledge3]

[triple-post]

 

[Knowledge3]

St. Peter established the ancient see of Antioch in 34-6 A.D.

 

[Knowledge3]

[edit] . . .

 

[Kristos]

Without writing a complete essay (which many have been on this subject), yes. In a nutshell, that sounds pretty close. A distiction to make here is that Orthodox do not have a Pope - a single person, who can create dogma. Nor do we believe in "personal" theology, that contradicts what has been believed by the Church from the beginning.

Joke: How many Orthodox does it take to change a light bulb? None - Orthodox don't know how to change anything.

 

[Reformationist]

Hi, long time no see!

The teaching about infallibility is best described in Bishop KALLISTOS Ware's book, The Orthodox Church (1993).

p. 251-4 infallibility of councils

p. 248-9 infallibility of the Church

p. 49 infallibility of the Pope



If you would go over to www.byzcath.org and ask that question of Father Anthony, an admin there, you would get a better answer.

Thanks. I think I'm gonna take my chances here on this forum for now but I'll keep it in mind.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Without writing a complete essay (which many have been on this subject), yes. In a nutshell, that sounds pretty close.

The link that Aria posted states this about infallibility:

"Orthodoxy upholds the reality that the Church, gathered together in Council under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is guided in making correct decisions and in enunciating truth."

I haven't yet found anything that relays the idea that decisions made in these Councils, or in any other infallible declarations, must be ratified by the acceptance of "the whole Church" before being considered infallible. Can you help me out with that?

God bless

 

[Mary of Bethany]

I believe those remarks are accurate. The Church is led by her bishops, but the clergy and laity together discern the Holy Spirit's leading.

Mary

 

[Reformationist]

I believe those remarks are accurate. The Church is led by her bishops, but the clergy and laity together discern the Holy Spirit's leading.

Mary

And what happens if the clergy and laity are in disagreement about something? Are you forced to deny the label of infallibility?

God bless

 

[Kristos]

There's no ratification. The Body will not let the Voice make an error.

This is from the Goarch website:

The doctrinal teaching of the Bible and the Ecumenical Synods constitutes the content of the Faith and the unmovable basis of orthodox dogmatics. The body of the Church, which consists of clergy and laymen, is the carrier of the infallibility of the Church, where the Holy Spirit protects it from making error. But the voice of the Church for expressing its infallibility is its highest authority - the Ecumenical Synod in which the whole pleroma (people of the Church) is represented by its bishops.. The decisions of these Synods are sources of the teaching of the Church. There are utterances of the synods (oroi) which directly express the dogmatical teaching of the Church, and some canons which hold dogmatical teachings, although they mainly deal with discipline and administration in the Church. The Ecumenical Synods are the main sources of the truths of the Church. The Symbol of Nicaea established by the First and Second Synods is repeatedly restated in the five Ecumenical Synods that followed through the eighth century.

 

[Kristos]

And what happens if the clergy and laity are in disagreement about something? Are you forced to deny the label of infallibility?

God bless

They work it out. Happens all the time.

 

[Reformationist]

But the voice of the Church for expressing its infallibility is its highest authority - the Ecumenical Synod in which the whole pleroma (people of the Church) is represented by its bishops.

Does this mean that every member of the church is not polled on their views about what is put forth but, rather, they have a bishop who accepts or rejects on their behalf?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

They work it out. Happens all the time.

Seems like an odd thing to have to happen for pronouncements to be accepted by the church as "infallible." I understand people misunderstanding or taking issue with a pronouncement at which point their bishop would instruct them on why it was accepted as infallible but, to say that the laity takes part in determining what is, and is not, infallible is very strange.

Are you guys contending that when the laity comes together they, also, are protected from error?

God bless

 

[Nickolai]

Seems like an odd thing to have to happen for pronouncements to be accepted by the church as "infallible." I understand people misunderstanding or taking issue with a pronouncement at which point their bishop would instruct them on why it was accepted as infallible but, to say that the laity takes part in determining what is, and is not, infallible is very strange.

Are you guys contending that when the laity comes together they, also, are protected from error?

God bless

It's not that we somehow trust some sort of Infallible democracy. We believe that the Holy Spirit works most clearly in Council. So when the Church as a full body reaches a consensus on something, we believe that it was the Holy Spirit guiding her to reach that decision.

But there really are various levels of belief, and we don't pronounce many infallible decrees. Pronouncement of dogma takes a very large consensus (i.e. as much of the Church as can show up to a council),and most dogma was already established many hundreds of years ago, so there isn't much need for infallible declarations now. Most conciliar decisions made today are on matters of local Church government, and bioethical issues every once in a while.

Reader Nikolai

 

[choirfiend]

Yes--think of this NOT so much as "taking a vote." We dont get ballots in the mail about doctrinal issues. But there have been things that have happened like Bishops attending a council where they made decisions/pronouncements that went against the teaching the people (laity) back at home KNEW. The people, when the bishops came back from the council, completely rejected the teachings of that council and sent their bishops back to reconvene.

Can anyone name that event for me? I always forget which it was--but basically, it is a pretty rare thing, since most bishops are not out to change or create new doctrine. Councils name or define church teachings--they dont come up with new teachings.

 

[Akathist]

One of your fellow EO stated "The Church as a whole is infalliable, not a man, or certain men. The appointed men decide on certain things but the WHOLE CHURCH must accept their decisions for them to be considered infalliable."

He also stated that, "No decision, when made, is said to be infalliable, but must stand through time and be accepted by the Church as a whole to be pronounced infallible."

Please, if you are inclined, explain whether these claims accurately represent your church's teachings on the issue of infallibility.

I would appreciate it if the person who made those statements refrain from answering as it is obvious that he already feels that those statements are in keeping with his church's views.

Thank you,
God bless

I strongly agree with the statements about the Orthodox Church. Why would you think this is not the truth? It is as if you want to assume that the person is misrepresenting us. But in fact, this statement is very much true and proven repeatedly in our history to be true.

 

[Knowledge3]

And what happens if the clergy and laity are in disagreement about something? Are you forced to deny the label of infallibility?

God bless

The laity is the (laos) body of Christ in the Church.

The bishops of the Orthodox Church are usually singular and in agreement with each other.

If a serious problem arises, they will convene together in holy fellowship and anathemize the specific problem.