Need some advice

[GQ Chris]

No, but people can and do deceive themselves into thinking a certain way that discounts God's authority by definition.

Yes, that is foolish. Despite the fact that politics is a dirty business, I think there are some Godly male and female Politicians, regardless of party affiliation.

 

[intricatic]

We just HAVE to quit agreeing like this... people are going to start talking



WE are the hands and feet of God down here on this earth... HIS vessels to work for righteousness and against evil.
How is it Usurping soveignty of God when God is USING US as His instruments of salt & light down here??

Sitting in a corner sucking my thumb is usurping God's work when He's called me to serve and work against evil.

What happened in the parable with the guy who just buried the talents God gave him and didn't do anything for fear of losing them?
Was God pleased that he turned into an Ostrich & buried himself in the sand ?

I dunno if you're grasping what I'm saying. I'm saying electing governance that isn't God is essentially electing to engage a dialectic process of human argument pitted against human argument, which, no matter how righteous it may seem, is a rejection of God's authority over all of life. It's saying those liberals can somehow damage God's authority, or that by working in a process of constantly changing political ideas we can somehow cling to the absolutes of God's sovereignty. Like I pointed out before: conservative heroes are the dead radicals of the past - the conservatives in the past hated those very same radicals. The same can be said about today's radicals and tomorrow's conservatives.

 

[Blank123]

Well again, I never really noticed your icon before I glanced at it -
the heretic stuff has been a joke as far as I was concerned when I read it from others around here.
However, I am baffled at how one is conservatively theological yet liberal socially becuz the 2 conflict in moral issues directly in several areas - including those who align with the liberal political parties (ie. ACLU etc.).

So yes that does confuse me quite a bit. Since you're from Canada, I'd consider Desmalia would explain it better than I could (dealing w/ Canadian policies I'm not as well acquainted with) - one that comes to mind is legalizing street drugs tho

if you wanna know about the Liberal Party of Canada here you go

http://www.liberal.ca/default_e.aspx

if you want to discuss anything specific about them you can ask me in PM since we've already derailed long enough.

Let me give you an example of perversion of the gospel in another way thru politics.
We have a Proposition 8 being voted on in the USA. Currently here in Calif. gay marriage is now legalized.
Prop 8 is proposing that marriage be defined as 1 man and 1 woman only.
It would stop gay marriage in Calif.

Liberals who claim Christianity are voting NO on it, to keep gay marriages legal - most are democrats.

I consider a person perverting the gospel in this way by frustrating the attempts to stop sinful gay marriages. It's a political issue, but it does work against scripture principle directly.
Do you wee the relation? This goes on in other social issues too - like legalizing street drugs, prostitution, open nudity, & other things God is directly against that liberals are OK with.

Why are ACLU members all democrat/liberals?? Look at what they support and promote and work against. I'm to love GOD first and foremost - moreso than "what's socially fair". The way I see it, God isn't out for what's socially fair, but what is RIGHT and RIGHTEOUS.

mmhmmm and we've dealt with a lot of those issues in Canada too. we're still standing. The thing is people are inherently sinful you can't avoid them at all costs because of their sin nature. Even in the church most people, due to the seekr sensitive movement, emerging church, etc... are not actually Christian but believe themselves to be so yeah they're still going to vote with the world.

you cannot Christianize a nation, you can't even Christianize a city. Its been tried before and its failed. But God is still sovereign anyhow. You vote how your conscience tells you to but please don't demonize people because of their political views.

Um I don't recall slandering anyone 'behind their backs'... I"ve stated my issues openly.
Yes I have issues, but whatever they are, I try to make sure there is biblical foundation for it in some way.


They're facts as I see them; that's why you'll often find fighting & division btwn the 2 parties. That is a fact too.

i haven't been watching your posts on the subject so i'm not accusing you personally of slander against the liberals but it is the general tone i've noticed here, thats what i was addressing. politically liberal Christians just don't seem welcome here, regardless of theological views.

Well I'm sorry I have offended you it wasn't my intention or point to do so.
And I thought that I was being cordial in the manner I said what I did.
But I do see differences - if I was wrong to point out what I noticed, then I apologize to you for that.

thank you

2 things cause division: religion & politics - it's just a fact (sorry to use the word again).... imho the only time it doesn't is with people who hold some apathy towards one or both.

Christians should be above all that though. We can disagree on politics, i'm not saying otherwise, but it shouldn't ever resemble how the world acts. Unfortunately thats not what i see a lot of the time on this site (even outside the CC forum) or even in the real world with Christians and politics, i hate to say it but a lot of Christians can actually sometimes be among the worst on this

 

[intricatic]

Yes, that is foolish. Despite the fact that politics is a dirty business, I think there are some Godly male and female Politicians, regardless of party affiliation.

How can one serve both God and mammon?

 

[GQ Chris]

Even here, it seems so many people feel the need to win something.

I disagree with you here, I am not out to "win" anyone, I have my own views, and if I win somebody to agree with me, that's fine, but it was never a goal or intention.

 

[GQ Chris]

How can one serve both God and mammon?

They can't. Speaking for myself personally, I serve God, that's my primary goal. I like material things, but they don't Own me. I do participate in Politics, but it doesn't rule my life. I believe that God is Sovereign over all, and I personally believe that God does use People, I know for a fact He uses me.

I don't Shy away from confrontation though, if the issue at Hand is important and relevant to me. To say that a person is serving Mammon over God whether it is implied or not, because they are "involved" isn't always the case for everyone.

 

[intricatic]

They can't. Speaking for myself personally, I serve God, that's my primary goal. I like material things, but they don't Own me. I do participate in Politics, but it doesn't rule my life. I believe that God is Sovereign over all, and I personally believe that God does use People, I know for a fact He uses me.

I don't Shy away from confrontation though, if the issue at Hand is important and relevant to me. To say that a person is serving Mammon over God whether it is implied or not, because they are "involved" isn't always the case for everyone.

I'm not saying everyone is, I'm saying the political process is defined by a single constant. All the rest drifts in a stream of naturalistic progress. The conservatives of today are only years behind the liberals of yesterday. I remember when the conservatives were ridiculing the idea of biodiesel as absurd, given the idea of global warming is absurd, and today you can see those same conservatives pursuing "alternative fuels", which is a fun example of that naturalistic progress at work. Yesterday's truth is obsolete today, and today's truth is obsolete tomorrow.

 

[GQ Chris]

I'm not saying everyone is, I'm saying the political process is defined by a single constant. All the rest drifts in a stream of naturalistic progress. The conservatives of today are only years behind the liberals of yesterday. I remember when the conservatives were ridiculing the idea of biodiesel as absurd, given the idea of global warming is absurd, and today you can see those same conservatives pursuing "alternative fuels", which is a fun example of that naturalistic progress at work. Yesterday's truth is obsolete today, and today's truth is obsolete tomorrow.

You're all over the place. One minute you're talking about Politics as somehow usurping God's Sovereign Authority, and the next minute its a debate about alternative fuels. One thing I have seen as constant is liberalism being wrong about things like war and Communism, Reagan proved that with the Cold War, and fast forward today with the liberals saying a troop surge would never work. Apparently the troop surge did Work, albeit a pyrrhic(sp.) victory.

 

[AnneSally]

It's a tall order we're given and I think Joe is doing what we're supposed to do by befriending the others in his community. Could he not use the opportunity to make his beliefs known in a friendly and loving way? I think he can and by reporting an event in a very benign way that doesn't endorse it is in no way condoning it. It could well be a way to learn more about exactly what these folks believe, which can easily be shown to be in error with Scripture.

Actually, this is an excellent and very valid point. I didn't think about this even though I did think about possible evangelising, I didn't know how you'd go about it but what you are saying is excellent. Befriending the community, not discriminating them for their beliefs but learning about the beliefs in order to use that as an opportunity to share the Gospel.

My straightforward "NO" answer was really a pretty pragmatic one. The way I see it is that there are SO many media outlets and secular publicity ops for all the beliefs that belong to this world, and not much for Christianity. My first thought would be, not on my time and money which I regard as God's so I wouldn't want to cover something which I believe is in violation to Him. But maybe that is not the correct way to go about it.....

My immediate thought when I read what Joe was asking was this: "They can go to ANY number and manner of media for publicity, why should a volunteer Christian do it when positive things for Christianity hardly get covered?" Maybe this was a rather ruthless approach, I don't know, but I just don't feel any compassion for covering false beliefs and giving any positive publicity for them whatsoever. Again, maybe I am wrong to feel this way, but I just do so I must be honest about it.....

Furthermore, this is following on the heels about how I feel personally about something I was discussing in another thread....That we hardly get to hear what wonderful works our churches are doing in the community and I have been feeling a desire to want to step into the breach on that. I don't know if God wants me to do it so I wont be doing it until I'm clear that He does, but it just feeds into why I answered the way I did which is this:

We have such a lacking of positive coverage for Christian stuff going on in the community so why would any of us want to cover the "perceived" lovely beliefs of others? You know? I've got a small wonderful church around the corner from me who organises about 1300 volunteers to look after the sick and eldery in my local community, and yet I doubt anyone even knows about it. So I was thinking, the last thing I'd want to cover is a festival of a false religion. But again, I was answering from my own selfish viewpoint, that's why I said *I* wouldn't do it.....

 

[JoeWill]

Thanks for your responses. I prayed about this and I ended up concluding it would probably be wrong to support that religious event. Here are my thoughts, if anyone would find them helpful.

God makes known in the Old Testament his feelings about people taking part in other religions e.g. offering incense to Baal. I think that ceremonies like Divali go against the spirit of the first and second of the Ten Commandments.

The children who will be doing the religious ceremony in my area are not actually from families who are adherents of any of the religions associated with it. By turning up I would essentially be giving my support to what they are doing. Then I thought about the words of Jesus when he said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." I couldn't imagine Jesus supporting kids to perform the Divali celebrations.

It's a difficult one because some of the ethical arguments for going did seem quite persuasive. One vicar said to me, "You'll be showing what's important to some other people in the community." But then again God's own feelings often get left out of the equation when it comes to this sort of ethical argument.

I think a lot of the problem actually lies with the kindergarten that is holding the ceremony. Instead of just telling the kids what other people believe, they are getting them to do it. I don't mind people learning about other faiths because knowledge of what others believe can increase levels of trust, respect and consideration among diferent groups. But actively taking part in these religions is a bit different. If I was a parent who used that kindergarten I wouldn't like my child to take part in the Divali celebrations, and then the child would be upset because they weren't lighting the oil lamps etc with the other kids.

If I was reporting for an organisation with its own set of values the situation might be different.

 

[Blank123]

i'm glad you were able to reach a resolution so quickly on this

 

[AnneSally]

Thanks for your responses. I prayed about this and I ended up concluding it would probably be wrong to support that religious event. Here are my thoughts, if anyone would find them helpful.

God makes known in the Old Testament his feelings about people taking part in other religions e.g. offering incense to Baal. I think that ceremonies like Divali go against the spirit of the first and second of the Ten Commandments.

The children who will be doing the religious ceremony in my area are not actually from families who are adherents of any of the religions associated with it. By turning up I would essentially be giving my support to what they are doing. Then I thought about the words of Jesus when he said, "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." I couldn't imagine Jesus supporting kids to perform the Divali celebrations.

It's a difficult one because some of the ethical arguments for going did seem quite persuasive. One vicar said to me, "You'll be showing what's important to some other people in the community." But then again God's own feelings often get left out of the equation when it comes to this sort of ethical argument.

I think a lot of the problem actually lies with the kindergarten that is holding the ceremony. Instead of just telling the kids what other people believe, they are getting them to do it. I don't mind people learning about other faiths because knowledge of what others believe can increase levels of trust, respect and consideration among diferent groups. But actively taking part in these religions is a bit different. If I was a parent who used that kindergarten I wouldn't like my child to take part in the Divali celebrations, and then the child would be upset because they weren't lighting the oil lamps etc with the other kids.

If I was reporting for an organisation with its own set of values the situation might be different.

Wow, I'm actually relieved to hear this and believe you are making the right decision.

I cannot fathom why it is acceptable to have children performing such a festival, there's no-way I'd let my kid perform that. Maybe you can write an article on what you have said this post, I think it is reasonable to draw the distinction between learning something and actually performing it.

So fwiw, I think you are doing the right thing and your reasons are wise, maybe you can go and educate the vicar on these thoughts. lol.