Need some advice

[GQ Chris]

Adhering to or voting for a liberal political candidate/party =/= perversion of the gospel.

I don't think that this is necessarily true all the time, but I will say, take for example, Barrack Hussein Obama's stance on Scripture is contrary to what any Obedient Christian would say. He believes that you cannot use the Bible to help a Man govern. So voting for someone like him I would say, is sharing in his perversion of Judeo-Christian values.

 

[intricatic]

First off, no I don't ignore things I disagree with; I often confront them and dig deeper. (ergo my post question).
And I resent the highlighted part of this statement becuz I take it as a false slam against me as a conservative when it's not true of many of us here.

Perhaps you could have left that negative statement right out.

& I for one don't despise philosophy -
I DO despise philosophy that elevates itself over Truth of God and God to use depraved philosophy of man.
Colossians 2:8
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception,
according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Isaiah 55:9
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Nothing wrong w/ philosophy at all - until it violates & usurps Godly principles/teachings. In fact, I believe God invented philosophy, reason, common sense & logic, etc.

I was not posting a hostile message, in fact, if I remember correctly, I've agreed w/ several of TL's posts that I've read in the past here.

I was merely asking a question as I know liberalism and liberals seem to carry specific views (looser views if you will) on several types of things.
Nothing more, nothing less than a simple question.

I'm not slamming you, I'm slamming the dialectic mentality of political ideology in general. Even God told Samuel that Israel demanded a king because Israel had rejected Him, afterall. That's the key point in understanding where the world started going wrong in terms of policy.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5 and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”
6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.
(1 Samuel 8)

 

[Blank123]

I don't think that this is necessarily true all the time, but I will say, take for example, Barrack Hussein Obama's stance on Scripture is contrary to what any Obedient Christian would say. He believes that you cannot use the Bible to help a Man govern. So voting for someone like him I would say, is sharing in his perversion of Judeo-Christian values.

i could say the same of many so called conservative politicians who hold themselves to be Christian like Obama does but thats neither here nor there.

Conservative politics aren't representative of the Christian worldview or gospel just like liberal politics aren't representative of those of satanism. They're simply representative of the candidate or party in question. And even those on both sides can be vastly different, you can get some extremely liberal and heretical Consveratives just like you can get some extremely conservative and doctrinally sound liberals. generalising doesn't do much good.

 

[GQ Chris]

i could say the same of many so called conservative politicians who hold themselves to be Christian like Obama does but thats neither here nor there.

Conservative politics aren't representative of the Christian worldview or gospel just like liberal politics aren't representative of those of satanism. They're simply representative of the candidate or party in question. And even those on both sides can be vastly different, you can get some extremely liberal and heretical Consveratives just like you can get some extremely conservative and doctrinally sound liberals. generalising doesn't do much good.

I don't think that Nadiine lumped you in the same category as all liberals.

 

[Nadiine]

because to be honest thats the idea i've been getting for a long time about this forum, look at all the threads and posts throughout this forum that are basically saying that if you support liberal politics you must be a heretic and that are ragging against anything and everything liberal, they haven't exactly convinced me otherwise. And then being called out randomly in a thread as a liberal doesn't exactly help.

Well again, I never really noticed your icon before I glanced at it -
the heretic stuff has been a joke as far as I was concerned when I read it from others around here.
However, I am baffled at how one is conservatively theological yet liberal socially becuz the 2 conflict in moral issues directly in several areas - including those who align with the liberal political parties (ie. ACLU etc.).

So yes that does confuse me quite a bit. Since you're from Canada, I'd consider Desmalia would explain it better than I could (dealing w/ Canadian policies I'm not as well acquainted with) - one that comes to mind is legalizing street drugs tho

the Bible only gives *one* reason to fight for something or to allow division between brothers and sisters: perversion of the gospel.

Let me give you an example of perversion of the gospel in another way thru politics.
We have a Proposition 8 being voted on in the USA. Currently here in Calif. gay marriage is now legalized.
Prop 8 is proposing that marriage be defined as 1 man and 1 woman only.
It would stop gay marriage in Calif.

Liberals who claim Christianity are voting NO on it, to keep gay marriages legal - most are democrats.

I consider a person perverting the gospel in this way by frustrating the attempts to stop sinful gay marriages. It's a political issue, but it does work against scripture principle directly.
Do you wee the relation? This goes on in other social issues too - like legalizing street drugs, prostitution, open nudity, & other things God is directly against that liberals are OK with.

Why are ACLU members all democrat/liberals?? Look at what they support and promote and work against. I'm to love GOD first and foremost - moreso than "what's socially fair". The way I see it, God isn't out for what's socially fair, but what is RIGHT and RIGHTEOUS.

So thats my basis for the issues I have in the 2 parties [socially].

Adhering to or voting for a liberal political candidate/party =/= perversion of the gospel. And the Bible certainly does not allow for slandering people behind their backs because of who or what they're intending to vote for

Um I don't recall slandering anyone 'behind their backs'... I"ve stated my issues openly.
Yes I have issues, but whatever they are, I try to make sure there is biblical foundation for it in some way.

and here you keep using the word "fact" or saying out right that liberal politics are indicative of something other than a conservative worldview. you're generalising and you're lumping people together. that doesn't make it fact.

They're facts as I see them; that's why you'll often find fighting & division btwn the 2 parties. That is a fact too.

And there wasn't any need to call attention to my political icon, all that does is serve to cause hurt and conflict. Its completely irrelevent to the topic at hand and to my post that you were replying to.

Well I'm sorry I have offended you it wasn't my intention or point to do so.
And I thought that I was being cordial in the manner I said what I did.
But I do see differences - if I was wrong to point out what I noticed, then I apologize to you for that.

I've liked your posts here too but i still don't exactly feel welcomed with open arms if my political icon is going to attract this sort of attention.

2 things cause division: religion & politics - it's just a fact (sorry to use the word again).... imho the only time it doesn't is with people who hold some apathy towards one or both.

anyways i think i've gotten my answer and there's no need to derail this thread any longer. The OP wanted advice let him get that

 

[intricatic]

I don't think that this is necessarily true all the time, but I will say, take for example, Barrack Hussein Obama's stance on Scripture is contrary to what any Obedient Christian would say. He believes that you cannot use the Bible to help a Man govern. So voting for someone like him I would say, is sharing in his perversion of Judeo-Christian values.

Politicians in general believe that the works of men will solve problems in the world at large, and not create more problems. Obviously any obedient Christian will follow God, not the works of men. We're not building utopia here, afterall.

 

[GQ Chris]

Let me give you an example of perversion of the gospel in another way thru politics.
We have a Proposition 8 being voted on in the USA. Currently here in Calif. gay marriage is now legalized.
Prop 8 is proposing that marriage be defined as 1 man and 1 woman only.
It would stop gay marriage in Calif.

Liberals who claim Christianity are voting NO on it, to keep gay marriages legal - most are democrats.

I consider a person perverting the gospel in this way by frustrating the attempts to stop sinful gay marriages. It's a political issue, but it does work against scripture principle directly.


Why are ACLU members all democrat/liberals?? Look at what they support and promote and work against. I'm to love GOD first and foremost - moreso than "what's socially fair". The way I see it, God isn't out for what's socially fair, but what is RIGHT and RIGHTEOUS.

So thats my basis for the issues I have in the 2 parties [socially].

YES!!

I agree with Nadiine, I don't proclaim Political Conservatives or the Republican Party to be a representative of God, although I do see liberalism as diametrically opposed to Judeo-Christian values, especially in the arena of public policy.

 

[Nadiine]

i could say the same of many so called conservative politicians who hold themselves to be Christian like Obama does but thats neither here nor there.

Conservative politics aren't representative of the Christian worldview or gospel just like liberal politics aren't representative of those of satanism. They're simply representative of the candidate or party in question. And even those on both sides can be vastly different, you can get some extremely liberal and heretical Consveratives just like you can get some extremely conservative and doctrinally sound liberals. generalising doesn't do much good.

& the day those repub. politicians take a platform and make openly nonChristian statements, I'll figure out who else I'll vote for when the time comes. I might have to not vote at all, or vote a 3rd party.
But in THIS election, I have one who's anti abortion and against gay marriage & doesn't want to raise taxes on small business owners, give welfare to those not paying any taxes & bring in socialism & other destructive policies...

McCain also hasn't sat under a racist, country bashing preacher for 20 yrs as his "mentor" either or had associations with radical terrorists who hate the USA or supported & helped a leftist voting group who fraudulently registers voters

 

[GQ Chris]

& the day those repub. politicians take a platform and make openly nonChristian statements, I'll figure out who else I'll vote for when the time comes. I might have to not vote at all, or vote a 3rd party.
But in THIS election, I have one who's anti abortion and against gay marriage & doesn't want to raise taxes on small business owners, give welfare to those not paying any taxes & bring in socialism & other destructive policies...

McCain also hasn't sat under a racist, country bashing preacher for 20 yrs as his "mentor" either or had associations with radical terrorists who hate the USA or supported & helped a leftist voting group who fraudulently registers voters

McCain is for letting the States decide how marriage is defined, Palin is not. Palin is really the one on the ticket that has spurred me to vote for McCain, since Mac leans on the socially liberal side.

 

[intricatic]

I apologize if I seem offensive or anything, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm just so conservative that even monarchy seems radical to me. Ironically, I'm not being satirical there, either.

 

[Nadiine]

YES!!

I agree with Nadiine, I don't proclaim Political Conservatives or the Republican Party to be a representative of God, although I do see liberalism as diametrically opposed to Judeo-Christian values, especially in the arena of public policy.

Exactly - politics in the social arena DO involve Biblical integrity.

To claim God is truth & uphold His word while we go voting AGAINST His very principles imho is working against God directly - opening the door to further immorality over a state/nation.

I see the 2 as diametrically opposed and it makes no sense to me.
It's completely confusing to me - seriously.

I'm republican becuz they announce that they're more sympathetic to keeping the traditional values we already have which is what is closest to scripture principles. No I don't want moral perfection & legislating fornication & adultery, etc. But I also don't want Sodom & GOmorrah!

Are they perfect? NO. I also don't believe every politician is Christian when they claim they are either -

anyways, sorry to derail the thread, but those things should be mentioned in reply.

 

[Nadiine]

I apologize if I seem offensive or anything, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm just so conservative that even monarchy seems radical to me. Ironically, I'm not being satirical there, either.

 

[GQ Chris]

Exactly - politics in the social arena DO involve Biblical integrity.

To claim God is truth & uphold His word while we go voting AGAINST His very principles imho is working against God directly - opening the door to further immorality over a state/nation.

I see the 2 as diametrically opposed and it makes no sense to me.
It's completely confusing to me - seriously.

I'm republican becuz they announce that they're more sympathetic to keeping the traditional values we already have which is what is closest to scripture principles. No I don't want moral perfection & legislating fornication & adultery, etc. But I also don't want Sodom & GOmorrah!

Are they perfect? NO. I also don't believe every politician is Christian when they claim they are either -

anyways, sorry to derail the thread, but those things should be mentioned in reply.

You know, I hate saying I agree with you all time (not really).. but I agree with you.. Again


To be fair, the damage has been done in any political party and no political group is immune from the Guilt of Sins before a Holy and Righteous Almighty God.

But neither do I agree with some Christians who will steer clear of Politics entirely. I will be the Salt and Light no matter my imperfections and flaws, and where I know in the areas where I am flawed and come up short, that God's Grace is supplied abundantly (Romans 8:28)

 

[intricatic]

You know, I hate saying I agree with you all time (not really).. but I agree with you.. Again


To be fair, the damage has been done in any political party and no political group is immune from the Guilt of Sins before a Holy and Righteous Almighty God.

But neither do I agree with some Christians who will steer clear of Politics entirely. I will be the Salt and Light no matter my imperfections and flaws, and where I know in the areas where I am flawed and come up short, that God's Grace is supplied abundantly (Romans 8:28)

I avoid politics because I have no intention of usurping the sovereignty of God as the True King over all of creation. Why would I want to contribute to the corruption of morality in society?

 

[porterross]

You go about being in the world but not of it by the practice of antithesis, not by ignoring the world itself and treating it as if it's fundamentally evil and must be avoided. If what I believe is true to reality, then I have no reason to be afraid of the usurpation of God's sovereignty inherent in political ideology in general. Consequently, I have to embrace that political ideology is ultimately a failure of humanism - even conservative philosophy is based on dead radicals who the conservatives at the time vehemently disagreed with (the dialectic transition from one form of thought to the other has nothing to do with reality and should be rejected as illogical). If you want to talk conservative politics, let's talk economy, but let's leave the social nonsense to the communists, socialists, and humanists.

That's true to a point, but social politics can and do cross the line when they curtail personal freedoms that include the suppression of one's religion. It's true that such suppression itself doesn't affect our faith, but it most certainly impacts our evangelism and ability to worship. It seems to me that one of our most limiting human characteristics, or flaws, is the need to take sides and I grow weary of the never-ending battles that cause us to take our focus off Christ. Even here, it seems so many people feel the need to win something.

If it was me - and I'm not being critical here - I'd use it as an opportunity to evangelize by subtly pointing out the problems with a particular non-Christian worldview, as the opportunity affords. "Condoning" and "Endorsing" are political phrases that speak to a motivation which may not even exist, but may be interpreted by other people as existing because most people are too clueless to understand the meaning inherent in the thing itself. Knee-jerk reactionism is the tool of ignorance, no matter which side of the dialectic you happen to embrace.

I agree that intolerance of others to express themselves is the definition of ignorance. As with any manner of discrimination, it undermines basic human rights and I would hate to think that we Christians would ever condone such a thing.

 

[GQ Chris]

I avoid politics because I have no intention of usurping the sovereignty of God as the True King over all of creation. Why would I want to contribute to the corruption of morality in society?

Whether someone had that intention or not, no one usurps this Authority anyways (Daniel 4:35)

 

[GQ Chris]

Whether someone has an opinion or not, or wants to get involved or not, they have labels whether they like it or not... think about the mess of Christian denominations..., also left wing, right wing, liberal/conservative, pacifist, Green party, Protestant or Catholic, heretic or Orthodox... and on and on...

 

[Nadiine]

You know, I hate saying I agree with you all time (not really).. but I agree with you.. Again


To be fair, the damage has been done in any political party and no political group is immune from the Guilt of Sins before a Holy and Righteous Almighty God.

But neither do I agree with some Christians who will steer clear of Politics entirely. I will be the Salt and Light no matter my imperfections and flaws, and where I know in the areas where I am flawed and come up short, that God's Grace is supplied abundantly (Romans 8:28)

We just HAVE to quit agreeing like this... people are going to start talking

I avoid politics because I have no intention of usurping the sovereignty of God as the True King over all of creation. Why would I want to contribute to the corruption of morality in society?

WE are the hands and feet of God down here on this earth... HIS vessels to work for righteousness and against evil.
How is it Usurping soveignty of God when God is USING US as His instruments of salt & light down here??

Sitting in a corner sucking my thumb is usurping God's work when He's called me to serve and work against evil.

What happened in the parable with the guy who just buried the talents God gave him and didn't do anything for fear of losing them?
Was God pleased that he turned into an Ostrich & buried himself in the sand ?

 

[intricatic]

Whether someone had that intention or not, no one usurps this Authority anyways (Daniel 4:35)

No, but people can and do deceive themselves into thinking a certain way that discounts God's authority by definition. That key point in history, recorded in 1 Samuel 8, is the foundation of the idea that political progress is essentially human and deals essentially with human concerns. That's where naturalism has brought us since it's inception. To keep moving along with the flow of dead naturalism is not to move away from it.

But that 1 Samuel 8 example is only one point in the chain of rejection of God's authority that will find ultimate fulfillment in the antichrist of Revelation. Politics will bring us there gradually, no matter what anyone says or does. The act of engaging the dialectic only shortens the stay of execution.

 

[Nadiine]

That's true to a point, but social politics can and do cross the line when they curtail personal freedoms that include the suppression of one's religion. It's true that such suppression itself doesn't affect our faith, but it most certainly impacts our evangelism and ability to worship. It seems to me that one of our most limiting human characteristics, or flaws, is the need to take sides and I grow weary of the never-ending battles that cause us to take our focus off Christ. Even here, it seems so many people feel the need to win something.

Speaking for myself here, you're way off there.

I don't vote to "win", I vote to impliment the policies and moral principles that are least destructive or better, which are biblical.

I have to live here and I'm working to keep from living in Sodom & Gomorrah & socialism & a Godless society.
Nothing more.

Sides are inevitable - even GOD takes sides and creates them.

"if you are not for Me, you are against Me"
"you cannot serve God and mammon"
& many more.