Need help with scripture

[A6A4]

I am in this debate with a Catholic at work and he wants to know exactly where it says that we have to be saved to get into heaven. He believes that if you do good works that you will be granted eternal life in heaven. I believe it is in Matthew, but I am at work and cannot quote the exact scripture to him. Please help me out!!

 

[ZiSunka]

Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the authority of the only begotten Son of God. John 3: 14-18

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16

Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness Romans 4:4

And the list could go on and on and on. I bet there must be 100 verses dealing wtih this. Works don't work.

 

[A6A4]

Thank you so much for those exact scriptures Lambslove!! I knew you would pull through for me!! He is just so believing that GOOD WORKS get you into heaven and I was telling him that was not it!! I just could not remember the exact scriptures to tell him. Thanks I told him that you have to be saved by the blood in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

John 3:1-4 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

A6A4,

I would let the man know the context of the verses.
Here is a man who is RULER of the Jews. Surely this man has done many great works right? Why would Jesus bring up going to heaven to this man, the ruler of the Jews?
Because Christ knew that this mans deeds, and works would not get him there! This is a perfect example to prove that you cannot get to heaven on your good works alone.

 

[jcright]

Thank you so much for those exact scriptures Lambslove!! I knew you would pull through for me!! He is just so believing that GOOD WORKS get you into heaven and I was telling him that was not it!! I just could not remember the exact scriptures to tell him. Thanks I told him that you have to be saved by the blood in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

If I may throw in my $.02 worth.

You might want to ask him what scripture he uses to be so certain that it is works and not faith. Whatever his verses are, they are taken out of context. Once you point out how those verses are supposed to be read, then I think you'll have an easier time when you present your verses that prove it's faith and not works.

 

[Gold Dragon]

GEL and lambsloves verses are great ones.

I also think it is useful to know which verses Catholics use to defend their perspective on the relationship of faith, works and salvation. Not necessarily to attack their perspective or to say who is right and who is wrong, but simply to understand where they are coming from.

NRSV - James 2:14-26

What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?
If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.

As protestants, we believe that James is saying that saving faith produces deeds and not that deeds produce saving faith.

The official Catholic belief in the Catholic Catechism does state that we are justified by grace through faith in Christ. And it does not state that works save us. But deeds and works are much more closely related to justification and salvation in the Catholic faith than in protestant understandings of it.

Here is a view from Christian Apologetics and Research Ministries.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

That was good Gold Dragon.
I think another good point is that Abraham was known and saved by his FAITH. His circumsision proved his faith to the world, but it was his FAITH that brought him to do that work in the first place.
I think many don't give humans a chance to grow in the Lord and really begin walking. Yes there are some that immediatly start producing fruits, but there are also many who have been so indoctrinated that they spend a couple of years in thier faith undoing what was done to them so that they can then go out and do the works of the Lord.

 

[Crazy Liz]

I am in this debate with a Catholic at work and he wants to know exactly where it says that we have to be saved to get into heaven. He believes that if you do good works that you will be granted eternal life in heaven. I believe it is in Matthew, but I am at work and cannot quote the exact scripture to him. Please help me out!!

As far as the scriptures go, I do not wish to add to what has already been posted. Well, maybe I will later , but first things first.

Of course you have to be saved to get into heaven! I think your friend would also say you must be saved to get into heaven, since that is part of the definition of being saved. Even universalists, who believe that everyone will get into heaven, believe this will happen because eventually everyone will be saved.

It sounds like you and your friend are arguing about how one may be saved, and not really whether one must be saved to get into heaven. The fact that you posed your question the way you did indicates you don't understand what the phrase "be saved" means. You seem to think of being saved as doing something, some kind of procedure you are trying to get your friend to do, or at least acknowledge as necessary. "Being saved" is something that happens to you. Notice it is in the passive mood.

There is no difference at all between "being saved" and "being granted eternal life." Both phrases mean exactly the same thing.

 

[Carrye]

I also think it is useful to know which verses Catholics use to defend their perspective on the relationship of faith, works and salvation. Not necessarily to attack their perspective or to say who is right and who is wrong, but simply to understand where they are coming from.

...

The official Catholic belief in the Catholic Catechism does state that we are justified by grace through faith in Christ. And it does not state that works save us. But deeds and works are much more closely related to justification and salvation in the Catholic faith than in protestant understandings of it.

Thank you for another nice post, GD.

A6A4: Salvation by works is a common misconception among some Catholics. Your co-worker is mistaken (and not representing Catholic belief) if he truly believes that it is his deeds that gain him salvation - that it's a sort of bank account. If however, he believes that his works are somehow intertwined with his salvation, then he is likely representing Catholic belief.

 

[BT]

Thank you so much for those exact scriptures Lambslove!! I knew you would pull through for me!! He is just so believing that GOOD WORKS get you into heaven and I was telling him that was not it!! I just could not remember the exact scriptures to tell him. Thanks I told him that you have to be saved by the blood in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I would recommend that you steer the conversation away from "Catholic" and "Baptist" and focus on the Word alone. When I come across anyone who believes that works somehow get your salvation. I use the following three scriptures (in this order)

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isaiah 64:6 shows us that we all are sinners and that anything we try to do (and call it righteous) is vain, and as "filthy rags" in the eyes of God.


Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:12 shows us that sin is a "condition" of all men, brought in by Adam and passed on to all men, in so much as "all have sinned"

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Finally Romans 6:23 shows us the only way out. We have "earned" death (that's what a wage is). The only thing our "works" can earn us is "death". Salvation is a "gift" from God. Exactly what has to be done to "earn" a gift? Nothing. There is nothing that you can do (works) that can gain you this gift. And this gift is "eternal life" the only way to obtain eternal life is via "this gift". This gift comes "through Jesus Christ our Lord", not through works, not through deeds, not through "being a good person", but ONLY through Jesus Christ.


Hey, you can get into a tonne of theology around this. But I've found that the simple approach is often best. How many times have you heard "yeah well that's your interpretation..." I'd heard it far too many times.. so I use the scriptures that absolutely plainly spell it out. There is no room for "that's your interpretation" in these verses. Often I'll present the verses one by one and ask, "What's that mean". The plain reading of these scriptures is enough for a person to understand them and understand the meaning. In this way you can let the person be the interpreter....

 

[Crazy Liz]

I said I might post about the scripture later.

The scripture in Matthew your friend is thinking of may be Matthew 25. I suggest you read it before continuing your debate.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I said I might post about the scripture later.

The scripture in Matthew your friend is thinking of may be Matthew 25. I suggest you read it before continuing your debate.

Sometimes I think that Matthew 25 is one of the tragic victims of sola fide. In our fear and overreaction to the abuses of works based salvation, some protestants have marginalized one of the most beautiful and powerful images that Christ gave to us.