Need explanation for stupid question

[Mimi]

Can I ask the Jewish people here a stupid question? Why are pigs/ swines unclean......not pure. I was reading the bible and suddenly I wondered about that. I know it is silly, but as a biologist who sees all life as equal, I do not understand this. Could anyone be so kind to explain this to me?


Lotta love and sunshine,
Mimi

 

[sojeru]

Well,

One thing I have learned of Judaism
is that we just obey G-D...that is it.
If G-D said it is an unclean animal- then that is just it
meaning that it is not fit for humans to eat
He said that many other things aswell are not fit for eating
such as snakes, resptiles, amphibians, certain birds- especially birds of prey.

1. we dont do things for "reason"
as in- "the reason that we do not eat such things is because it is unhealthy to eat them"
such as, we do not circumcise our children because it is healthy for the child.
we do because he said.

this is the principle that i know
I am not a biologist as you are so I cant say.
but a reason that G-D himself gives is the chewing of the cud
and me, I say- OK, will do.

shalom u'brachot

 

[iitb]

Since this isn't actually a Jewish debate, I've moved it to the main MJ forum.

 

[Talmidah]

Can I ask the Jewish people here a stupid question? Why are pigs/ swines unclean......not pure. I was reading the bible and suddenly I wondered about that. I know it is silly, but as a biologist who sees all life as equal, I do not understand this. Could anyone be so kind to explain this to me?

1. And the Lord spoke to Moses and to Aaron, to say to them: 2. Speak to the children of Israel, saying: These are the creatures that you may eat among all the animals on earth: 3. Any animal that has a cloven hoof that is completely split into double hooves, and which brings up its cud that one you may eat. 4. But these you shall not eat among those that bring up the cud and those that have a cloven hoof: the camel, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you. 5. And the hyrax, because it brings up its cud, but will not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you; 6. And the hare, because it brings up its cud, but does not have a [completely] cloven hoof; it is unclean for you; 7. And the pig, because it has a cloven hoof that is completely split, but will not regurgitate its cud; it is unclean for you. 8. You shall not eat of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
Lev 11:1-7

Basically, as sojeru stated, we don't dwell on the reason "why" for a particular commandment. It can be interesting to speculate, but in the end it just comes down to obedience. I think that if one is intent on understand why G-d commands a certain thing, it would be easy to rationalize why that reason was only for a particular time, people, location, etc and therefore no longer applies to us.

I am not saying you shouldn't ask questions, and I don't think this is a 'stupid' question at all. Jews are taught to question everything, but still, obedience to Torah is what we strive for.

 

[visionary]

I was told the pig flesh tastes like human flesh,
that there is a worm in the flesh of pig that can get into our flesh when we eat it which can not be removed,
and because the pig will eat all kinds of filth.

 

[debi b]

CATS - the other white meat!

[pong]Now that is silly[/pong]

 

[Henaynei]

CATS - the other white meat!

[pong]Now that is silly[/pong]

LOL --Now--- that's not kosher either!!

 

[Plan 9]

Basically, as sojeru stated, we don't dwell on the reason "why" for a particular commandment. It can be interesting to speculate, but in the end it just comes down to obedience. I think that if one is intent on understand why G-d commands a certain thing, it would be easy to rationalize why that reason was only for a particular time, people, location, etc and therefore no longer applies to us.

I think he had good reasons, and that we should be able to understand a least a little of why he asks the things of us that he does. Yeshua spent quite a lot of time explaining things to people.
I try to help my dogs understand a little of why I expect them to do what to them is often irrational, and even frightening, and knowing what liitle they can does help them.
Surely G-d cares more for us than I care for my dogs; I believe he wants us to be his companions, just as some of us want "Man's Best Friend" to be ours, only more so. If I'm correct, that's the unfathonable mystery. What if he wants more than totally blind obedience? Certainly, he's never expected it of me up till now; I've never been capable of it. Not ever. Yet he's never turned me away.

I am not saying you shouldn't ask questions, and I don't think this is a 'stupid' question at all. Jews are taught to question everything, but still, obedience to Torah is what we strive for.

Several of you have told me that inquiry is a good thing, and I know you sincerely believe it, yet I run into this wall every time I ask this kind of question, as though in trying to comprehend any of his reasons why, you run the risk of invalidating your faith? Or someone elses' faith?

At one time, I understood nothing I read in the Bible; not who, what when, where, or why. Everytime I read a passage, I had a new questions; many of them have been answered over the years, or partly so, and it's always been exciting that a book so short could contain so very much that I could not only eventually comprehend, but profit from, often in uxexpected ways.
You have no idea how difficult it's been not to deluge you with an endless series of threads asking a variety of questions, some of which might have seemed trivial to you...but not to me.

Now my best learning years are long are over, and I know I don't have another 32 to spend grasping Messianic Judaism, even if I were still as sharp as I once was. If I'm still on my own here, please just tell me so, and I'll stop asking you for assistance you can't give me.
We'll still be friends and fellow believers in HaShem, after all.

 

[Talmidah]

Several of you have told me that inquiry is a good thing, and I know you sincerely believe it, yet I run into this wall every time I ask this kind of question, as though in trying to comprehend any of his reasons why, you run the risk of invalidating your faith? Or someone elses' faith?
At one time, I understood nothing I read in the Bible; not who, what when, where, or why. Everytime I read a passage, I had a new questions; many of them have been answered over the years, or partly so, and it's always been exciting that a book so short could contain so very much that I could not only eventually comprehend, but profit from, often in uxexpected ways.
You have no idea how difficult it's been not to deluge you with an endless series of threads asking a variety of questions, some of which might have seemed trivial to you...but not to me.

Now my best learning years are long are over, and I know I don't have another 32 to spend grasping Messianic Judaism, even if I were still as sharp as I once was. If I'm still on my own here, please just tell me so, and I'll stop asking you for assistance you can't give me.
We'll still be friends and fellow believers in HaShem, after all.

I apologize if I have been a stumbling block in regard to your questions. I honestly have not meant to be. I truly believe that it is good to ask questions and I have asked plenty that I would have considered 'dumb' or 'trivial', but still wanted answers. In regard to this question, I was just trying to emphasize that no one can really know the "why" behind the commandment not to eat treif (unclean foods). I have heard some people talk about the lack of refrigeration back then, trichonosis (sp?), etc...and then say that since these problems are not common anymore, the comman not to pork wouldn't apply anymore. (I have heard this often from people in the Reform Judaism movement). I was expressing that even if, after pondering something and perhaps coming to a particular conclusion, we just need to keep in mind that G-d's ways are higher than our ways and we still need to submit ourselves to him even when it doesn't quite make sense.

As for your best learning years being over...I frankly do not believe it. As long as you continue to study, ponder, question, apply, etc...it will keep your mind sharp. I would ask that you do ask when something is not clear to you ... you are not on your own here. Some of the folks here have a tremendous amount of knowledge and are able to explain things in ways that make things a little clearer.

May HaShem bless you, Planny!!!!

 

[Bulldog]

LOL --Now--- that's not kosher either!!

They don't have cloven hooves.

 

[Henaynei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: Henaynei

LOL --Now--- that's not kosher either!!

They don't have cloven hooves.

they don't chew their cud either - and unless they do they aint' kosher!!

 

[Henaynei]

Almost all (but not all) of the forbidden animals are waste eaters

Almost all (but not all) of the allowed animals are NOT waste eaters

Almost none of us fully understands why

 

[Talmidah]

Almost all (but not all) of the forbidden animals are waste eaters

Almost all (but not all) of the allowed animals are NOT waste eaters

Almost none of us fully understands why

I love Henaynei's succint, to-the-point way of explaining things!!!

 

[Plan 9]

I apologize if I have been a stumbling block in regard to your questions. I honestly have not meant to be. I truly believe that it is good to ask questions and I have asked plenty that I would have considered 'dumb' or 'trivial', but still wanted answers. In regard to this question, I was just trying to emphasize that no one can really know the "why" behind the commandment not to eat treif (unclean foods). I have heard some people talk about the lack of refrigeration back then, trichonosis (sp?), etc...and then say that since these problems are not common anymore, the comman not to pork wouldn't apply anymore. (I have heard this often from people in the Reform Judaism movement). I was expressing that even if, after pondering something and perhaps coming to a particular conclusion, we just need to keep in mind that G-d's ways are higher than our ways and we still need to submit ourselves to him even when it doesn't quite make sense.

You've always done your very best to be helpful to me, and to every seeker who has come here; please don't think otherwise!

The point which you and visionary have both made about the possibility of contracting trichinosis is an apt one, and anyone who thinks they're in no danger of contracting that parasite from pork now is kidding themselves.
Until quite recently every gentile boy was routinely circumcised for health reasons, and not only his; it's never a great idea to eat an animal which you've found dead, etc., etc., etc.
Could the problem be that I'm perceived as wanting concrete reasons only, perhaps because that's how it usually goes, when I'm perfectly happy with symbolic ones?
After all, why has Passover been celebrated for so many centuries, if not for its symbolic practices, and for remembrance sake?

I suspect some sort of misunderstanding has taken place; for one thing, I have no desire whatsoever to refute the practice of such commandments.

I agree with that G-d's ways are higher than ours, and we should all be extremely grateful that's so!
I've jettisoned many a previously firm conclusion over the years, because I learned I was utterly wrong, and many things regarding the nature of G-d himself I no longer consider knowable by the likes of me; that's what makes him G-d.

However, it's an essential part of my nature that I know as much as I can about matters which directly affect my relationship with him.

Worse than that, it's an essential part of my nature that I learn, when possible, why I never see any baby pigeons, and why the words "ravel" and "unravel" mean the same thing. What's anyone supposed to do with a person as unrelentingly curious as I am?
Did you know that the man-of-war is not a jellyfish? Did you know that there's a good reason why green olives are ordinarily packed in jars, while black olives are packed in cans? Did you know that the tallest man in modern history was Robert Wadlow, who was 8 feet, 11.3 inches when he died at the young age of twenty-three?

You see?

As for your best learning years being over...I frankly do not believe it. As long as you continue to study, ponder, question, apply, etc...it will keep your mind sharp. I would ask that you do ask when something is not clear to you ... you are not on your own here. Some of the folks here have a tremendous amount of knowledge and are able to explain things in ways that make things a little clearer.

I'm afraid that you just aren't as sharp when you age past a certain point because your brain cells fail to adequately replicate themselves as they once did, and the bloom is simply off the intellectual rose. My mind is slower to learn, tp make important connections, and I no longer can cite my sources from memory. Some days, I'm lucky to get my shirt on right-side out.

In addition to that, I have some neurological problems which also hinder me, although I have gained so much inner knowledge and empathy of the kind I once prayed for, that I have no complaint to make on that score.
True to form, nothing I ever learned in school was enough for me to feel confident as a counselor in some respects; I always felt that I was on the outside looking in, instead of being on the inside looking out. I kept nagging G-d that I had to know more about organic brain disorders or I might not refer a client to a doctor in time.
Please understand that I'm not saying that G-d answered my prayer in this manner, but I've always thought this has its funny side.

In any case, I'm the same inverterate question-asker I have been from earliest memory, and all of you taken together know a multitude of things of which I'm totally ignorant! I've lost track of how many years I've been both running and playing in RPGs where anything weird can happen, and does, yet you have created a cafe/RPG here in which I never have the slightest clue how to participate! I can't grasp the context! ROTFL!

I know this is a long, boring MOI post (yeesh!), but I've stuck you with it because I don't want anyone here to ever feel that I intend my questions to be adversarial or threatening; if my posts sometimes have a frustrated "tone", the fault is obviously mine!


May HaShem bless you richly, Talmidah!

 

[Henaynei]

Please forgive those of us who seem to have a slight knee-jerk reaction at times. Many of us have come here from years of chatroom and messageboard wars bruised, battered, scarred and gunshy. Somethings just "set us off," like an old calvary horse who hears a car backfire and thinking it's artillary fire, tries to leap to the battle!!

We come here seeking like minds and refuge, as well as learning and sharing. But some old grooves are hard to level out or get out of. So when we stumble into one or you bang your shin on one of our grooves, please forgive us. It is not infrequently that it is another with whom we are contending - a shade from another time.......

 

[simchat_torah]

It has not to do with one form of life being lower or lesser than another. It has to do with what G-d created as food healthy for human consumption. It boils down to G-d's love for us.


shalom,
yafet

 

[brentsbaby612]

It has not to do with one form of life being lower or lesser than another. It has to do with what G-d created as food healthy for human consumption. It boils down to G-d's love for us.

Nice response! *thumbs up*

My husband's Granddad is very german. Eatting pork is a big deal to him. He's obese and dying of heart disease . I don't eat it because HaShem said so, but I also don't believe it is good for you.

 

[Flavius]

It has not to do with one form of life being lower or lesser than another. It has to do with what G-d created as food healthy for human consumption. It boils down to G-d's love for us.


shalom,
yafet

What Yafet said here is true,It's because G-d loves you and he wants you healthy.
If you are one of those freak pet owners like me that just loves their pet,you might know this. Me and my ex-wife had a little wiener dog and we fed that dog pork all the time,one day that little dog started bleeding internaly and eventually died,we later found out it was because of all the pork we fed it.

We had no idea of the facts that feeding pork to a small dog will kill it.
Every animal that we are not supposed to eat is someway unhealthy to us.

Getting circumcised wont make you go to heaven but it's proof that you love your wife.That's what its all about
Uncircumsized males can cause cancer in females and they are about 70 percent more likely to spread aids.In Africa right now there are teams going through all the tribes of Africa circumsising all the males because males are spreading the disease to the whole nation.

I'm not at all against eating road kill,I see a deer get hit by a car and I'm cuttin me a leg off but If I see a vulture eating on it first I'll pass it up.

You aint supposed to eat vultures.Why you ask? It's common sense.
Now vultures like fresh meat like us but their problem is that by the time they find it from the smell its allready tainted.Vultures eat rotten meat and thats why I wont eat a vulture.Pigs dont have sweat glands and can't sucrete all the toxins they have.
What would happen if a human didnt have sweat glands? You would have cysts and carbuncles oozing with puss all over.A pig will roll around in its on fecal matter and mix it with the food it eats.A vulture will land on any surface wether it be stinky,bloody,moldy or just outright slimy.A dove wont land on any surface like that.
Horses are too poud to eat,They rush into battle smelling the fear and death without hesitation,it would be like eating a dolphin.

Texas armodilla..hmmm yup,they are the cause of very many leporesy cases in Texas.one of the nastiest animals around.

Iguanas really scare me cause they carry so many diseases.

Rats have killed ten of thousands and dogs as well.

Do a study on diseases and you will find that 95 percent of them come from animals.The mumps came from dogs,aids from monkeys.u can just go down the list

Every single instruction in Torah is so that things will go well with you.

Any farmer will tell you to let the land rest every 7 years
Any farmer will tell you how to plant things by the moon.
Any idiot will tell you that if you have black mold growing in your house you have a problem.

Unclean animals are just unclean.
That's just the physical side of an unclean animal.
Look at the charachteristics of animals and there are 2 reasons.
If an animal ripps and tares the flesh of something else,most likely thats an unclean animal.Doves don't eat meat and they try to commit suicide in front of your car everyday.When you see a dove on the road and you almost hit him it's because it has a nest with babies and it risks its life everyday trying to draw you away from it's nest.

Dang I always say too much, sorry.

 

[debi b]

I kinda look at these things like this;

There are things that are external, very plain and clear. He says do this and don't do that etc. These kinds of things are training. Will I follow where He leads? The exterior things are easy. He says dress this way - ok. Scripture says wear zitzit to be a reminder of commandments. My husband wondered why but did it anyway. He told me after awhile the concept became clearer to him. He said they got in his way all the time. That is what commandments are supposed to do. Be right there in the way as we are making decisions, reminding us of our choices. It is training in holiness.

When we first starting cleaning the leaven out of our cupboards for Passover I had no idea the deep principles it would illuminate. Sometimes in the doing we find our answers.

So then when we are trained in the light/easy/external things, we can apply those principles to the harder things. The internal areas.

Just my two cent - and darn it they won't even buy you a cup of coffee!

 

[sojeru]

FIRST.
one must be like a child to enter the kingdom

that means that one must be quick to obey as a child reared correctly and well.
most children do as you tell them, all they need is to be supervised.

Second.
is to grow in this faithful obedience and know the reasons then.

but one cannot know the reasons of anything if they do start with the initial- TO DO.

that is the jist.

WHATEVER YOU DO- YOU BELIEVE

shalom u'brachot