Necessity of evil

[Robban]

That's not free will from my perspective.

When I say "free will" I mean "libertarian free will". To be able to choose what you want is not free will. Free will is to be able to will what you want to choose.

Libertarianism (metaphysics) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That's not free will from my perspective.

When I say "free will" I mean "libertarian free will". To be able to choose what you want is not free will. Free will is to be able to will what you want to choose.

Libertarianism (metaphysics) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"If we do His will only when it makes sense what has it to do with Him

we are doing our own will.

We are back in prison again."

 

[zoidar]

"If we do His will only when it makes sense what has it to do with Him

we are doing our own will.

We are back in prison again."

We are to strive for always doing God's will. So much is clear.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Of course? These people arent idiots. Theres a vast difference between "random" and "unknown". Regardless, the state of physical science can be sidestepped if it will suck all the oxygen out of the discussion. Its not critical.

As I noted theres an alternate possible explanation for free will. Namely: its a divine gift. This is much more appealing, and sensible to the way the Bible reads, than some grand puppet show.

Sure free will can be a divine gift, IF it is not logically self-contradictory in what you mean by it. It is not uncaused.

 

[Mark Quayle]

From your view I don't understand how you can even say God has free will. He chooses to do what He does from who He is. So then His character is what determines His choices, and God has not created His character, so then there is no free will.

Remember that it is our poor attempt to describe God that insists that he does what he does out of his own character. It may be accurate enough for us, but it doesn't quite include just who he is —the one who created very fact itself. It is silly to say he is bound by his nature, if he has no inclination to be otherwise than his nature.

But if our free will means we choose to what we are most inclined to do at that moment of choice, then why should his be any different?

Can you scientifically explain how God can have free will?

I expect you mean, 'logically', explain how God can have free will. Better scientists than I, would say you first have to demonstrate "God", before scientifically demonstrating God's free will. Though it might be kind of fun, for those who suggest fact is caused by a spectator, to go from there to the fact that God is THE spectator of all fact!

But if by free will, you intend what I hear you calling libertarian free will —that is, truly spontaneous, uncaused by outside fact— then ONLY God has free will. And if it only means something along the lines of choosing according to one's inclination, God does that too, even though we don't really understand what it means by choice, when applied to God.

 

[disciple Clint]

Your assertion is based purely on faith in the workings of a committee way back in 325 CE. Of course, you are perfectly entitled to your beliefs. But if there are so many good reasons for a triune God, why are there non-trinitarian Christian denominations? True, they're a minority of Christians, but they do exist. Apart from Unitarians and Unitarian Universalists we have Oneness Pentecostals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Scientists, the LDS (not considered to be Christians as per CF policy,) and many Society of Friends meetings. Not to mention that the other Abrahamic religions--Jews and Muslims--are both strongly one God, as one personage. And then there are the Catholics. Who revere and worship Mary as a divine intercessor. Mary isn't on God's level. Catholics aren't quadritarian. But they're sort of trinitarian + 1.

Why does God allow all this variation and confusion?

OK first we have to decide if we believe that there is a God, Then we have to understand the nature of God. There are always going to be people who have unique believes that are in contrast with the vast majority of reasonable people, to question the validity of something simply because there are opposing views is not logical, as humans we are never going to have 100% consensus on anything. I am not Catholic but they do not pray to Mary as if she were a member of the Godhead, they simply ask her to intercede for them with her Son, something that Mom's frequently do, interceding for others. I am not a Catholic but do I believe that Jesus loves and listens to His mother, yes I do. There are logical philosophical arguments that support the Trinity, the Bible itself, which is the inspired word of God supports the Trinity, but anyone who wishes not to believe in the Trinity is perfectly free to do so. I know that the Trinity is a difficult concept to understand and is frequently misunderstood and explained by using examples that are actually incorrect and often heretical but it is not simply a matter of faith.

 

[Robban]

We are to strive for always doing God's will. So much is clear.

"Will "leads me to think pf illwill, goodwill, willing, unwilling,

If "will" was replaced with "spirit" how would that work out?

 

[Robban]

"Will "leads me to think pf illwill, goodwill, willing, unwilling,

If "will" was replaced with "spirit" how would that work out?

According to Chassidic Masters "Ruach/spirit" is one level, dimension of the soul.

Ruach/spirit is the emotianal self and "personality".

Chayah/Life is the supra rational self--the seat of the will, also a level of the soul.

Five levels in all.

They also speak of two distinct souls that vitalize the human being, an animal soul and a Godly soul.

 

[zoidar]

Remember that it is our poor attempt to describe God that insists that he does what he does out of his own character. It may be accurate enough for us, but it doesn't quite include just who he is —the one who created very fact itself. It is silly to say he is bound by his nature, if he has no inclination to be otherwise than his nature.

But if our free will means we choose to what we are most inclined to do at that moment of choice, then why should his be any different?

I don't understand what you mean "we choose what we are most inclined to do at that moment of choice?" Is that something you can prove? I would say we choose our inclination.

I expect you mean, 'logically', explain how God can have free will. Better scientists than I, would say you first have to demonstrate "God", before scientifically demonstrating God's free will. Though it might be kind of fun, for those who suggest fact is caused by a spectator, to go from there to the fact that God is THE spectator of all fact!

But if by free will, you intend what I hear you calling libertarian free will —that is, truly spontaneous, uncaused by outside fact— then ONLY God has free will. And if it only means something along the lines of choosing according to one's inclination, God does that too, even though we don't really understand what it means by choice, when applied to God.

My point was just that we can't scientifically show how God can have free will, then why would we suppose that we can scientifically show how man can have free will?

 

[zoidar]

"Will "leads me to think pf illwill, goodwill, willing, unwilling,

If "will" was replaced with "spirit" how would that work out?

Replace it with Spirit? Strive to do God's Spirit? To do God's will means live righteously. If you live after God's Spirit you live righteously.

 

[zoidar]

According to Chassidic Masters "Ruach/spirit" is one level, dimension of the soul.

Ruach/spirit is the emotianal self and "personality".

Chayah/Life is the supra rational self--the seat of the will, also a level of the soul.

Five levels in all.

They also speak of two distinct souls that vitalize the human being, an animal soul and a Godly soul.

I'm not sure who the "Chassidic Masters" are and I don't know why i would trust them in anything they say.

 

[Robban]

I'm not sure who the "Chassidic Masters" are and I don't know why i would trust them in anything they say.

Not unlike the Saducees then, they did not recoghize the authority of Rabbis, Sages, angels,oral Torah or resurrection either.

That is why they were So -sad- you-see.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I don't understand what you mean "we choose what we are most inclined to do at that moment of choice?" Is that something you can prove? I would say we choose our inclination.

Yes, of course we choose our inclination. The lost always choose to be inclined against God —even when they don't know that that is what they are doing. It is even true that our body and mind can be trained to follow a certain inclination. So what?

I guess I could have said it better, though. I meant that we always choose to do what we are most inclined, at that moment of choice, to do.

My point was just that we can't scientifically show how God can have free will, then why would we suppose that we can scientifically show how man can have free will?

I don't understand why "scientifically" is the appropriate word there, but, oh well, I will deal with it as, "logically" or "philosophically".

So, do you mean that man has this libertarian free will, whether we can demonstrate it or not? Something along the lines of, "The fact that we cannot demonstrate it logically does not mean it is not so. —After all, we can't logically demonstrate that God has it, so why should we expect to be able to demonstrate that man has it?"? FWIW, the two 'proofs' are of two completely different natures.

 

[durangodawood]

Sure free will can be a divine gift, IF it is not logically self-contradictory in what you mean by it. It is not uncaused.

So what caused God?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So what caused God?

Nothing. The law of causation (which the principle itself is caused by God) does not demand that all things are caused —but only that all effects are caused. And I say that everything is an effect, except God. God did not even cause himself —(that would be logically self-contradictory, because he would have to exist in order to cause his own beginning)— God has no beginning; God is self existent.

 

[durangodawood]

Nothing. The law of causation (which the principle itself is caused by God) does not demand that all things are caused —but only that all effects are caused. And I say that everything is an effect, except God. God did not even cause himself —(that would be logically self-contradictory, because he would have to exist in order to cause his own beginning)— God has no beginning; God is self existent.

So God's decisions (actions, creation, etc) are not even free will in the sense I'm looking for? They are effects too?

 

[Mark Quayle]

So God's decisions (actions, creation, etc) are not even free will in the sense I'm looking for? They are effects too?

Huh? "So God's decisions...are not even free will..."? Of course they are not themselves free will.

Decisions, in humans, even if you believe in "libertarian" (spontaneous) free will, are not themselves free will, but the result of the will behind them. Yes, God's creation is an effect. But God is not us. It's ludicrous to say that his decisions and his acts are to him like ours are to us. It is only that we don't know how to think of them how he is. So we attribute them as effects of his will.

Certainly, when he decided to create, that creation was an effect of both his will and his decision, and of his act of creating, but I don't know that we can accurately say that his will is an effect, nor his decision nor his creating, except to make it comfortable for our brains to accept. There are some that go so far as to say that his will and his decisions ARE him, but I'm not quite ready to go that far either, as it could be used to imply things that are false.

God alone has true spontaneity. Only First Cause, is uncaused.

 

[zoidar]

Yesterday I was writing a response to your assertion that you wanted to will the choices.
I wrote "Ok, I will myself a big mac and cheese with fries and milkshake....so there
About a minute later the pharmacy called.
I changed my response because...
The pharmacy is right next to the hamburger joint and within a few minutes I was having my big mac and cheese with fries.
The Lord works in mysterious ways as willing yourself a choice is possible with faith, as you could say to the mountain....
I do believe God will provide the opportunity, if it be His will.

Interesting! We are also to be aware that the devil can provide us with things if it serves his cause. Not saying the devil provided you with hamburgers, just that we are to be careful. God bless!

I think it was a good thing you didn't write the intended response. So many times after going into discussion I regret doing so, many times they just lead to nothing.

Btw, I love hamburgers.

 

[durangodawood]

Huh? "So God's decisions...are not even free will..."? Of course they are not themselves free will.

Decisions, in humans, even if you believe in "libertarian" (spontaneous) free will, are not themselves free will, but the result of the will behind them. Yes, God's creation is an effect. But God is not us. It's ludicrous to say that his decisions and his acts are to him like ours are to us. It is only that we don't know how to think of them how he is. So we attribute them as effects of his will.

Certainly, when he decided to create, that creation was an effect of both his will and his decision, and of his act of creating, but I don't know that we can accurately say that his will is an effect, nor his decision nor his creating, except to make it comfortable for our brains to accept. There are some that go so far as to say that his will and his decisions ARE him, but I'm not quite ready to go that far either, as it could be used to imply things that are false.

God alone has true spontaneity. Only First Cause, is uncaused.

I thought the law of causation prevented any true spontaneity according to you. You said "...all effects are caused. And I say that everything is an effect, except God". So while His existence is uncaused, his actions are an effect.

Why does humans having true spontaneity break logic while God having it does not? I think youre implying about Gods situation: "well that just a mystery". Well.... if its a mystery there, then human proper free will can be a mystery here. Whos to say it has to be something we can fully comprehend?

 

[QvQ]

Intreresting! We are also to be aware that the devil can provide us with things if it serves his cause. Not saying the devil provided you with hamburgers, just that we are to be careful. God bless!

I think it was a good thing you didn't write the intended response. So many times after going into discussion I regret doing so, many times they just lead to nothing.

I cannot Will a choice but God can provide the opportunity for a choice.

Coincidence...
I thought it was God reminding me that "ask and ye shall receive" as God does provide the choices.
I almost forgot that for a moment, that God can and does provide choices.
I never would have gone to town if not for that coincidental phone call.

Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” Matthew 17:20-21

 

[zoidar]

I guess I could have said it better, though. I meant that we always choose to do what we are most inclined, at that moment of choice, to do.

I still don't understand what you mean. Maybe if you give me an example it will help. What do you mean by being inclined?