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Necessity of evil

durangodawood

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....The idea that GOD wrote it doesn't make it a fiction.....
Not sure about this. We have a deep sense that real life consists of beings living out of their own (limited) agency, all interacting. If we remove all capacity to self direct, then we arent even people anymore in any sense that would separate us from trees, rocks, or anything. We're all just soulless matter behaving according to rules imposed upon us.
 
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zippy2006

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To be fair to God, we couldn't know if/how he does if he did because he exists outside of our reasoning.
You must be laboring under two false premises.

"From a Christian perspective, " :
  1. God has not revealed himself to be good
  2. Natural reason cannot know that God is good
 
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Mark Quayle

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Not sure about this. We have a deep sense that real life consists of beings living out of their own (limited) agency, all interacting. If we remove all capacity to self direct, then we arent even people anymore in any sense that would separate us from trees, rocks, or anything. We're all just soulless matter behaving according to rules imposed upon us.
You seem to suppose that we lose all capacity to self-direct if God causes all things. They are not incompatible. What makes "soul" is God. What makes anything real is God.
 
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durangodawood

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You seem to suppose that we lose all capacity to self-direct if God causes all things. They are not incompatible. What makes "soul" is God. What makes anything real is God.
Youre right, I do suppose that.

If X causes all things, then there's no room for Y to cause anything. And self direction is me being the cause of some decisions in my life.
 
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Neutral Observer

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If X causes all things, then there's no room for Y to cause anything. And self direction is me being the cause of some decisions in my life.
I'm curious, do you reject determinism as well, because it would seem to have the exact same effect of robbing you of your free will?

Or is it possible for your will to actually be an active component of determinism and not just an inconsequential byproduct of it. In other words while physics may determine the outcome of any situation your will may still be an integral component of that situation, and therefore more than just an inconsequential byproduct thereof.

And might the same thing be true of God's will, that while God's will may be the ultimate determining agent in any situation your will is none-the-less an integral component of that situation. Therefore it may be wrong to simply conclude that God determines everything with no regard for your free will, but rather God determines everything but in tandem with your free will.
 
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durangodawood

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I'm curious, do you reject determinism as well, because it would seem to have the exact same effect of robbing you of your free will?

Or is it possible for your will to actually be an active component of determinism and not just an inconsequential byproduct thereof. In other words while physics may determine the outcome of any situation your will may still be an integral component of that situation, and therefore more than just an inconsequential byproduct thereof.

And might the same thing be true of God's will, that while God's will may be the ultimate determining agent in any situation your will is none-the-less an integral component of that situation. Therefore it may be wrong to simply conclude that God determines everything with no regard for your free will, but rather God determines everything but in tandem with your free will.
I do in fact reject physical determinism as well. Not dogmatically tho. I mean, I dont know for sure that physical determinism isnt real. Same with divine determinism. They both simply seem rationally unsupported to me, as well as undesirable. But I could be wrong.

With physical determinism Im not finding room for my will to be the true origin point of any decision. In this case I do have something called "will" for sure. Its the various mental inclinations of the organism "me". But all of those boil down to physical results.

I think of divine determinism the same way. The concept "determinism" is absolute. It implies one outcome based on one initial state. And the deity sets the initial state. I dont even think a basic reading of the Bible supports this, with God making corrections, changing course, even as a result of persuasion from humans.

I do think the behavior of most of the universe simply follows from physical properties. Elements combine. Planets go round, But I think conscious minds like ours are some emergent new thing which contain the potential for a new origin point of action.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Youre right, I do suppose that.

If X causes all things, then there's no room for Y to cause anything. And self direction is me being the cause of some decisions in my life.
So you have lowered God to our sort of being, or mankind to God's order of being. There can be only one first cause. And it is self-contradictory to say that First Cause can bring a second first cause into being.

But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned. Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.
 
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zippy2006

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But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned.

If those "further effects" are not all directly caused by God then God does not cause all things. Thus durangoda's objection applies equally well to these "further causes."

Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.

According to your Reformed theology God causes the means just as much as he causes the ends, and thus durangoda's objection remains unaddressed.
 
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durangodawood

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So you have lowered God to our sort of being, or mankind to God's order of being. There can be only one first cause. And it is self-contradictory to say that First Cause can bring a second first cause into being.

But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned. Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.
No. Just existing somewhere along an immutable cause-effect chain is not free will. It would be like saying the 6 ball had free will because it "caused" the 9 ball to drop in the side pocket.

Real free will (if it exists) is being the actual origin of a decision.

Since this touches on the nature of God and what He intended, how do you deal with verses indicated God changed his mind about a thing?
 
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Mark Quayle

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With physical determinism Im not finding room for my will to be the true origin point of any decision.
Why does your will need to be the true origin point of any decision you make? Maybe you mean, the true hinging point. It is, certainly, your will that makes the difference between one choice and another.

But, is not cause-and-effect entirely pervasive? (And I include in that, God intervening into what we call natural, with what we call miracle. The miracle is still caused by first cause.)
 
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Mark Quayle

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If those "further effects" are not all directly caused by God then God does not cause all things. Thus durangoda's objection applies equally well to these "further causes."
HOW, is it that if one thing causes all subsequent things, no matter how far down the chain of causation, it doesn't cause all subsequent things? As one science writer said, rather poetically, something like, "The seeds of everything we see now, were sown in the Big Bang 14 billion years ago." IF the BB is truly what spawned this universe, it caused it.

Obviously, my point is not the Big Bang. My point is, that by chain of causation, if not by direct intervention, everything is caused, except First Cause, and everything is caused, either immediately or by chain of causation, by First Cause.

Frankly, I don't see how you can conclude that God did not cause something if he caused what causes something. Your only alternative is randomness, which is frankly, self-contradictory. Remove First Cause from the picture, and there is NOTHING. No thing. No causes, no effects, no decisions, no creatures, no will.
According to your Reformed theology God causes the means just as much as he causes the ends, and thus durangoda's objection remains unaddressed.
Yes, though Reformed theology does say that God uses means to further cause. That is why it is called, "means". The means by which further things are caused. His objection is addressed.

I'm finding it incogent to suppose that if X causes something, let's say, Y, and Y causes Z, that X did not cause Z. If you want to describe it in terms of morality, then yes, X is not to blame for Z's choices, merely by being a cause of Z, but X caused that Z chose, regardless, every bit as surely as the butterfly in China caused the hurricane in the Atlantic. But regardless, even as unwitting causers, we do cause by means of other causes. Notice, however, that at this point we have migrated into 'ways of looking at it', rather than facts.

The fact is that God is an order of being quite a bit beyond us. All things descend causally from him. And he, even in the mind of most Arminianistic believers, KNOWS all things. And knowing all things he purposely caused that they be. Thus he even intended that they be.

Yeah, he caused our choices. And our wills, by which we operate.
 
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durangodawood

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Why does your will need to be the true origin point of any decision you make? Maybe you mean, the true hinging point. It is, certainly, your will that makes the difference between one choice and another.
Im not sure what a "hinging point" is. In your schema it sounds essentially like the moment one billiard ball touches another. My sense of free will has some aspect of a decision being up to you in the moment and not entirely contingent on previous events. Certainly not just following a script written in the heavens.
But, is not cause-and-effect entirely pervasive? (And I include in that, God intervening into what we call natural, with what we call miracle. The miracle is still caused by first cause.)
I dont actually know whether strict cause/effect is entirely pervasive. I'm proposing its not. At the most basic level current physics allows for actually-random subatomic events. So theres that. But keeping at human scale, I want actual free will. It feels like I have actual free will. There's no persuasive argument that I dont have it. Therefore thats the story Im going with. Its also the western Judeo-Christian story as far as I can tell. The Bible only makes sense to me if people can to some degree make actual choices that belong to them alone. And as I noted, even God in the Bible changes His mind. So much for pre-destination and a script fixed from day one.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Im not sure what a "hinging point" is. In your schema it sounds essentially like the moment one billiard ball touches another. My sense of free will has some aspect of a decision being up to you in the moment and not entirely contingent on previous events. Certainly not just following a script written in the heavens.
Ok, then, let's say, 'point-of-divergence', as some propose, supposing that timelines actually split according to 'possibilities', instead of saying "hinges". (I can't understand how they figure that fact follows human narrative, but anyhow...).

BTW, your billiard ball picture is pretty good, for inanimate objects. It has no will, and operates by cause-and-effect, and, regardless of what is unknown by the onlookers, there is only one possibility —what happens is the only thing that could have happened, as history is witness.

But, I don't know how you can know one way or another, whether or not we follow a "script written in the heavens", except by witness of Scriptures, and by reason. It's just conjecture, and anthropomorphism to boot, if you depend on empirical evidence.
I dont actually know whether strict cause/effect is entirely pervasive. I'm proposing its not. At the most basic level current physics allows for actually-random subatomic events. So theres that. But keeping at human scale, I want actual free will. It feels like I have actual free will. There's no persuasive argument that I dont have it. Therefore thats the story Im going with. Its also the western Judeo-Christian story as far as I can tell. The Bible only makes sense to me if people can to some degree make actual choices that belong to them alone. And as I noted, even God in the Bible changes His mind. So much for pre-destination and a script fixed from day one.
Well, no, current physics models suggest events that appear random. There is no demand for actual random. The fact we don't know the cause(s) doesn't make it random. But if one trusts human terminology to accurately describe fact, then consider that Chance can determine nothing —it is self-contradictory.

You hear from time-to-time, big shot physicists who make no bones that everything is either cause or effect or both. It is one of the basic principles to reason. "Chance" and "random" are just placeholders for "I don't know..." and "I don't have the data to figure out why...".
 
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zippy2006

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My sense of free will has some aspect of a decision being up to you in the moment and not entirely contingent on previous events.
Yes, this is exactly right. Here is what Aquinas says:

"Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act."​

In the same article:

"Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will."

----------

If you want to describe it in terms of morality, then yes, X is not to blame for Z's choices, merely by being a cause of Z, but X caused that Z chose, regardless, every bit as surely as the butterfly in China caused the hurricane in the Atlantic.
Finally, something we agree on. ^_^

I'm finding it incogent to suppose that if X causes something, let's say, Y, and Y causes Z, that X did not cause Z.
Your adversion to per accidens causality is beside the point. Sure, that the cue ball caused the 9-ball to drop into the pocket does not preclude the pool cue from causing the 9-ball to drop into the pocket. This is irrelevant to the argument durangoda gave. He is talking about immediate efficient causality of the sort that responsibility is attached to. For example, if Andy is the father of Opie then Barney cannot be the father.

Here's an argument:
  1. A free act is self-caused by an agent. {Premise}
  2. If an event is self-caused by an agent then the agent decides whether to bring it about, and they are also able prevent the event from occurring by refraining from action. {From the definition of 'self-caused'}
  3. Therefore, Events which are freely caused by an agent are not infallible or inevitable. {From 1 & 2}
  4. Therefore, If an event is infallibly caused by God, then it is not freely caused by Jones. {From 3}
 
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QvQ

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In some belief systems good is what benefits and evil is what does not. However what benefits a mosquito does not benefit a man, so good and evil are arbitrary categories assigned by and to whom is biter or bitten.
In some belief systems, good and evil are assigned by outcome, whether the action acrues wealth, health peace or poverty, disease and strife.
In some belief systems, good acts are to appease forces and powers of gods or spirits. Evil is what a god visits upon the nonappeasers.
In Christianity, as far I can determine, good and evil are by the command of God. Some of the commands are counterintuitive, such as turn the other cheek. Obeying any and all commands perfectly gets a person exactly nothing as Job can attest and works are not counted for salvation.
However, as a system of morality, Christianity works. It is not whether it is good or evil, advantagous or even pleasing to God (as the willingness to obey is more important than the act of obedience) but whether it is the Command of God.
That is unique in beliefs systems as the God of Christianity is a rational being who has a thoughtful dialogue with man about who God is and what truly benefits a man.
So there isn't any Good and Evil in Christianity, although we recognize evil within the world, and define it as what we don't like or what offends us or what outrages our sensibilities. But that is cultural, temporal as cultures change those categories in time and space.
The God of Christianity is the God of the Bible who defines the laws, not as good or evil but as the Will of a living, rational God.
 
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Neutral Observer

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But if X causes all things, then the effects that X causes can also be causes of further effects, just as X planned. Y is an effect of causes, and whether by immediate cause, or by means of secondary (intermediate) causes, of First Cause. It may be a long chain of means, by which God causes all things, but it is a simple logic.
You're probably already aware of it, but in metaphysics there are two different types of causal series... per accidens causal series and per se causal series. The 'First Cause' can be the per se cause without necessarily being the per accidens cause. Hence it's possible for God to be the first cause and at the same time for us humans to have free will.

I other words God may be that which causes all other things to exist, but there's more to us humans than merely existence, like for example your being here on CF. Reality itself needs a cause, and that's God, but that doesn't preclude such things as which clothes you choose to wear from being a product of your own volition.

At least as I understand it that's one version of the argument for free will.
 
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BeyondET

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I do in fact reject physical determinism as well. Not dogmatically tho. I mean, I dont know for sure that physical determinism isnt real. Same with divine determinism. They both simply seem rationally unsupported to me, as well as undesirable. But I could be wrong.

With physical determinism Im not finding room for my will to be the true origin point of any decision. In this case I do have something called "will" for sure. Its the various mental inclinations of the organism "me". But all of those boil down to physical results.

I think of divine determinism the same way. The concept "determinism" is absolute. It implies one outcome based on one initial state. And the deity sets the initial state. I dont even think a basic reading of the Bible supports this, with God making corrections, changing course, even as a result of persuasion from humans.

I do think the behavior of most of the universe simply follows from physical properties. Elements combine. Planets go round, But I think conscious minds like ours are some emergent new thing which contain the potential for a new origin point of action.
Electrons and Photons go back a long way. Stars burn out and produces a key element "gold" for electrical transmitting in the human body and brain function and is also for supporting the joints.

Even at the most primitive of states in the universe. Some of the ability for man to make a decision came from a star.
 
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Diamond72

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"Wants"? What do we know of what God wants
Show me anywhere in the Bible where God wants us to disobey him. That is totally opposed to everything the Bible represents and teaches us. We know what God "wants" from actually reading the Bible. Show me the Bibles that you have wore out from reading them.
Bible2.jpg
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes, this is exactly right. Here is what Aquinas says:

"Free-will is the cause of its own movement, because by his free-will man moves himself to act."​
Does Aquinas also destroy the logic that if a thing descends causally from first cause, that it is, regardless of arguments as to responsibility, nonetheless caused by first cause?

I find also, I must remark, that Aquinas argument changes none, if he only uses the term, 'will', instead of 'free-will'.
In the same article:

"Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will."
But within this argument by Aquinas, perhaps a resolution to our differences can be found, in that his description of the necessity of "will" ("free-will", he says) for responsibility, and for value to such things as counsels and rewards etc, is based on the difference between brute instinct and reason. The truth is, that [at least some] animals have reason, to some degree, and not just brute instinct; and so, I wonder within myself, if God sees, in comparison to himself, a similar difference concerning our ability to reason, (i.e. not just in degree of knowledge and understanding of data), as Aquinas sees between humans and animals.

Also in this argument of Aquinas', responsibility in terms of morality, he attempts to imply, by the difference in ability to reason. I honestly do not see God thinking that way. True, I will admit, the thoughts of the mind ("heart") by which God judges the deeds, have everything to do with the degree of right and wrong, so the degree of ability to reason also has implications into the judgement God makes. But I'm not at all sure the mere ability is the difference between the moral responsibility (and by implication, 'moral agency') of humans vs the innocence of animals.
----------

Your adversion to per accidens causality is beside the point. Sure, that the cue ball caused the 9-ball to drop into the pocket does not preclude the pool cue from causing the 9-ball to drop into the pocket. This is irrelevant to the argument durangoda gave. He is talking about immediate efficient causality of the sort that responsibility is attached to. For example, if Andy is the father of Opie then Barney cannot be the father.
I'm not sure 'per accidens' is the right term there, unless only 'contingent' is meant. But even 'contingent' I don't like, except to describe something as over against 'necessary'. Both 'contingent' and 'per accidens' are very human concepts, and assume that "otherwise could have happened". We don't know whether or not "otherwise could have happened". We only know that "otherwise" did not happen, (and in fact, that "otherwise" never has happened); (and, of course, we know that "necessary" has always happened). Abstract thought, besides the will, is one of the marks of rational beings. But abstractions are far from "necessary".

Not meaning anything against such as Aquinas —after all, all sides of the free-will debate think they prove things by use of very human assumptions, even to the point of using merely human points of view to do so— but even 3 of "The 5 Ways" argue on the basis of "we say", as though the logical extrapolation of what we say (or think) has any bearing on the facts of what we are attempting to treat. In other words, his conclusions are only trustworthy, (if they are even logical), as conclusions concerning how we should or must think or speak concerning those assumptions we make.

It is one of the more ironic facts, concerning human thought, that being made in the image of God is visible in our (perhaps) trust in our words to be somehow possessing of substance.

All that, to say, WE are the ones deciding here, of our own judgement, to what to attach 'responsibility', (and we also assume that 'responsibility' swings both ways —that wherever one is responsible for good things, then that one is also responsible for bad things, (and vice versa), regardless of who the person is upon whom we wish to attach the responsibility, and regardless of their relationship to the event. This assumption of ours also has not been shown valid.)
Here's an argument:
  1. A free act is self-caused by an agent. {Premise}
  2. If an event is self-caused by an agent then the agent decides whether to bring it about, and they are also able prevent the event from occurring by refraining from action. {From the definition of 'self-caused'}
  3. Therefore, Events which are freely caused by an agent are not infallible or inevitable. {From 1 & 2}
  4. Therefore, If an event is infallibly caused by God, then it is not freely caused by Jones. {From 3}
In other words, "We find we must think so." (Not, "it is so")

But notice in your argument, #2 translates (thus making a further assumption not spelled out as such) that "event" is equivalent to #1's, "free act". This has not been shown.

Not only that, but regardless of the value of the argument, the implication you appear to attempt to be making (granted, you appear to me, to be attempting to make) is that not only is 'freely caused by an agent' mutually exclusive to 'infallibly caused by God', but also that 'freely caused' (whatever is meant by that) is necessary for human responsibility, which is not at all shown here.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Show me anywhere in the Bible where God wants us to disobey him. That is totally opposed to everything the Bible represents and teaches us. We know what God "wants" from actually reading the Bible. Show me the Bibles that you have wore out from reading them. View attachment 330346
You're kidding, right? When I say, "what do we know of what God wants?", I'm not speaking of what we should or shouldn't do, but of our inability as mere fool humans to assess what it means for God to WANT something. You are beating a strawman. (No doubt with the best of intentions, though.)

I have to say, worn-out Bibles are often found in places where a wrong assumption has been maintained from the start till death. I don't see any validity in the size of one's dedication nor education. I don't automatically respect those who attempt to show that theirs is bigger than mine. In fact, it tends to ruin their credibility for me.
 
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