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Neanderthals and Other Hominids

Notedstrangeperson

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This is partly a personal question and partly a scientific one - where do neanderthals and other pre-Sapien hominids fit into the creation story?

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Most TEs believe in both the evolution of mankind and Gensis; some believe it was metaphorical, other that there was a literal Adam and Eve. Evolutionists believe change is gradual and emerged from pre-existing beings (as oppose to each species being directly created by God) yet when it comes to humanity we take a more creationist view - mankind did emerge suddenly and was directly created by God. Adam was the first human.


Normally I see no conflict between evolution and Christianity, but in this case I haven't been able to reconcile the evolution of man with the creation story. There are just too many question left unanswered:
  • Were the neanderthals descendants of Adam? They seemed intelligent enough to be considered (almost) our equals. Recent evidence shows Europeans and Asians have neanderthal genes but Africans don't.
  • Both neanderthals and sapiens are considered to be descendants of homo heidelbergensis - and the above link shows we were apparently closely-related enough to interbreed. Was Adam a member of homo heidelbergensis?
  • At what point did hominids develop some concept of religion? Certain hominids buried their dead, which might indicate some kind of belief in an afterlife. This is a hard question to answer as finding the right kind of evidence would be extremely difficult.
  • According to evolution there is no 'magic moment' where one species suddenly emerges, there is only gradual change. We can trace the slow development of whales from furry quadrapeds into fish-like mammals, but there was no magic moment when the blue whale suddenly came into existance. Why should humans be any different?
  • Timeline - if Adam was the forefather of both neanderthals and sapiens this means he lived more than a million years ago, which seems incompatable with the family legancy written in the Bible.
I don't actually know a great deal about prehistoric anthropology so feel free to add anything you think is useful.
 
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sfs

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Most TEs believe in both the evolution of mankind and Gensis; some believe it was metaphorical, other that there was a literal Adam and Eve. Evolutionists believe change is gradual and emerged from pre-existing beings (as oppose to each species being directly created by God) yet when it comes to humanity we take a more creationist view - mankind did emerge suddenly and was directly created by God. Adam was the first human.
I don't think most TEs think mankind emerged suddenly; I don't, at any rate. I don't think two individuals like those described in Genesis as Adam and Eve ever existed.
  • Were the neanderthals descendants of Adam? They seemed intelligent enough to be considered (almost) our equals. Recent evidence shows Europeans and Asians have neanderthal genes but Africans don't.
  • Both neanderthals and sapiens are considered to be descendants of homo heidelbergensis - and the above link shows we were apparently closely-related enough to interbreed. Was Adam a member of homo heidelbergensis?
No Adam, so no issue here for me.
  • At what point did hominids develop some concept of religion? Certain hominids buried their dead, which might indicate some kind of belief in an afterlife. This is a hard question to answer as finding the right kind of evidence would be extremely difficult
As you say, it's hard to know. It's certainly possible that Neandertals had some form of religion.
  • According to evolution there is no 'magic moment' where one species suddenly emerges, there is only gradual change. We can trace the slow development of whales from furry quadrapeds into fish-like mammals, but there was no magic moment when the blue whale suddenly came into existance. Why should humans be any different?
No reason that I can think of.
  • Timeline - if Adam was the forefather of both neanderthals and sapiens this means he lived more than a million years ago, which seems incompatable with the family legancy written in the Bible.
That's only an issue if you think Genesis is a literal, historical account of anything. I don't think it is.
 
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mark kennedy

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This is partly a personal question and partly a scientific one - where do neanderthals and other pre-Sapien hominids fit into the creation story?

---------------------

Most TEs believe in both the evolution of mankind and Gensis; some believe it was metaphorical, other that there was a literal Adam and Eve. Evolutionists believe change is gradual and emerged from pre-existing beings (as oppose to each species being directly created by God) yet when it comes to humanity we take a more creationist view - mankind did emerge suddenly and was directly created by God. Adam was the first human.


Normally I see no conflict between evolution and Christianity, but in this case I haven't been able to reconcile the evolution of man with the creation story. There are just too many question left unanswered:

For us to have evolved from apes it would have required an accelerated evolution of brain related genes. The evolution of the human brain would have had to start it's accelerated evolution on a molecular basis some 2 million years ago and within Homo Erectus (considered human by most creationists) would have had a brain size twice that of the Austropihicene and early Hominids.

Homo habilis that would have lived. 2.5–1.5 mya with a cranial capacity of ~600 cc. The next link would have been Homo erectus with a cranial capacity of ~1000cc. KNM-WT 15000 (Turkana Boy) would have lived 1.5 mya and the skeleton structure shows no real difference between anatomically modern humans. The skull while smaller then the average cranial capacity of humans but close to twice that of his ancestors of 2 mya.

The Neanderthals, it should be noted, had a cranial capacity 10% greater then our own.

With a 1200-1750 cm³ skull capacity (10 percent greater than modern human average) Neandertal

With that in mind lets take a look at your questions.

Were the neanderthals descendants of Adam? They seemed intelligent enough to be considered (almost) our equals. Recent evidence shows Europeans and Asians have neanderthal genes but Africans don't.

The Neanderthals had a cranial capacity comparable to modern humans and may well have been larger on average. Compare that to chimpanzees and the Homo habilis cranial capacity that is nearly three times smaller.

The loose definition of species is the ability to interbreed. Sometimes even distinctly different species can like the Troglodytes and Bonobos. At any rate should we decide that the Neaderthals could have we are left with the tentative conclusion that they belong in our species, not just our genus.

I couldn't follow your link but I found this. The Neanderthal genome is a new interest for me so I'm piecing this together the best I can.

“Neandertals are not totally extinct; they live on in some of us,” says Svante Pääbo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, and leader of the Neandertal genome project.

He and other geneticists involved in the effort to compile the complete genetic instruction book of Neandertals didn’t expect to find that Neandertals had left a genetic legacy. Earlier analyses that looked at only a small part of the genome had contradicted the notion that humans and Neandertals intermixed (SN Online: 8/7/08).

“We as a consortium came into this with a very, very strong bias against gene flow,” Reich says. In fact, when he and his colleagues announced the completion of a rough draft of the Neandertal genome a year ago, the researchers said such genetic exchange was unlikely (SN: 3/14/09, p. 5).

But several independent lines of evidence now convince the researchers that humans and Neandertals did interbreed. “The breakthrough here is to show that it could happen and it did happen,” Pääbo says.​

Neandertal genome yields evidence of interbreeding with humans

Both neanderthals and sapiens are considered to be descendants of homo heidelbergensis - and the above link shows we were apparently closely-related enough to interbreed. Was Adam a member of homo heidelbergensis?

Homo heidelbergensis would have had a cranial capacity overlapping our own. They comparable in size if not a little taller with tools, language and social behavior not unlike our own.

These fossils, like the Neanderthals, represent variations in the lineage from our common ancestor Adam. What you should be asking yourself is if there is the time or the means for humans to have evolved from apes.

At what point did hominids develop some concept of religion? Certain hominids buried their dead, which might indicate some kind of belief in an afterlife. This is a hard question to answer as finding the right kind of evidence would be extremely difficult.

Ten of these mid-Quaternary hominins have brains averaging 1,206 cm(3) in volume, and many fall beyond the limits of size predicted for Homo erectus of equivalent age. Brain size and encephalization in early to Mid-Pleistocene Homo.

What they believed isn't important, what we should be able to conclude is that they are well within the range of modern humans along with Homo erectus.

According to evolution there is no 'magic moment' where one species suddenly emerges, there is only gradual change. We can trace the slow development of whales from furry quadrapeds into fish-like mammals, but there was no magic moment when the blue whale suddenly came into existance. Why should humans be any different?

But that's not what we see, major transitions are marked by a sudden appearance in the fossils record particularly with regards to the Cambrian explosion and the three fold expansion of the human brain from that of apes. Gradualism is not a model for adaptive evolution, it's a rationalization that has been confounded by the actual evidence.

Timeline - if Adam was the forefather of both neanderthals and sapiens this means he lived more than a million years ago, which seems incompatable with the family legancy written in the Bible.

It makes perfect sense to me. 1 Sam 17:4 describes Goliath as being some 9 1/2 feet tall and Genesis describes the Nephilim as 'heroes of old, men of renown.' Then in Numbers 13:32-33 the descendants of Anak, are described as giants. What we are looking at is the range of variation that is still evident in human populations to this day. I see no real problems here, just puzzles.

I don't actually know a great deal about prehistoric anthropology so feel free to add anything you think is useful.

You introduced a subject I have not really explored before, thanks for that. Hope my little contribution helps you along in your journey.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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CryptoLutheran

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Hi GitRDunn,

Evidence such as...

_40811823_skull250.jpg


-CryptoLutheran
 
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Harry3142

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I suspect that some of the scientists who claim that there were multiple species which all died out except for our own have never left their labs and gone into the streets of our cities to observe who is actually here. I watched one of the documentaries, in which they put the facial features of a person they called a neanderthal together so that we could see what he would have looked like, both full face and profile. Of course, the documentary also stated that those people who had looked like this neanderthal were all extinct now, having been wiped out by either their environment or our own ancestors.

The day following my having watched this documentary I'm walking in the downtown area of this city when a man walked by me that could have been the model for the socalled neanderthal, both full face and profile. If the neanderthal was actually a seperate species, it's not extinct. Instead, it's been assimilated into our species.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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I suspect that some of the scientists who claim that there were multiple species which all died out except for our own have never left their labs and gone into the streets of our cities to observe who is actually here. I watched one of the documentaries, in which they put the facial features of a person they called a neanderthal together so that we could see what he would have looked like, both full face and profile. Of course, the documentary also stated that those people who had looked like this neanderthal were all extinct now, having been wiped out by either their environment or our own ancestors.

The day following my having watched this documentary I'm walking in the downtown area of this city when a man walked by me that could have been the model for the socalled neanderthal, both full face and profile. If the neanderthal was actually a seperate species, it's not extinct. Instead, it's been assimilated into our species.

Actually, from what I understand this is a thus unanswered question, whether or not neanderthal was wiped out or assimilated into us; meaning their genetic material is floating around in our bodies.

There's also the debate as to whether neanderthal is a separate species or a subspecies.

That neanderthal existed, however, there is no dispute.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Thanks for the replies. If possible I'd like to get an answer from a TE who believes in a literal Adam and Eve. So far I'm most inclined to agree with Mark Kennedy. Huh, never thought I'd say that. :p

As I said, I don't know a great deal about prehistoric anthropology but I am not entirely sure that skull shapes is the best method to judge whether or not we are different species.

On one occasion another user made a rather unpleasant comment that the skulls of aboriginals were more similar neanderthals than they were to caucasians. He seemed to take this as evidence that aboriginals were less evolved that white people.
My own interpretation is the other way round - modern aboriginals are clearly members of homo sapiens despite their seemingly archaic skulls. Could the same be said for neanderthals?
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Granpa said:
how is being similar to neanderthals being 'less evolved'?

That wasn't my opinion, it was the opinion of a different user. I personally disagree with it.

Granpa said:
why do you assume that neanderthals are 'less evolved'? what does it mean to be 'less evolved'?

Basically we survived, they didn't. Although as other users pointed out, they may have assimilated into homo sapiens - so they live on through us.
 
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sfs

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Actually, from what I understand this is a thus unanswered question, whether or not neanderthal was wiped out or assimilated into us; meaning their genetic material is floating around in our bodies.
That questioned has been answered pretty well, thanks to the sequencing of the Neandertal genome. The answer is that non-Africans have a couple of percent Neandertal DNA in their chromosomes. So they contributed a little genetically to (some) modern humans, but not very much.
 
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mark kennedy

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That questioned has been answered pretty well, thanks to the sequencing of the Neandertal genome. The answer is that non-Africans have a couple of percent Neandertal DNA in their chromosomes. So they contributed a little genetically to (some) modern humans, but not very much.

Steve, I'm just curious really. Aren't you just a little bit skeptical of fossilized DNA. I haven't really pursued it but it seems hard to imagine that you could get a complete sequence.

Your thoughts....

Edited to add:

He needs a shave but other then that he kind of looks like a truck driver, or the guy who trims your trees.

neanderthal-photo_wide.jpg


2010: A Good Year For Neanderthals (And DNA)

This story seems to indicate that Neanderthals interbreed with humans, I wouldn't want him dating my daughter but anyway... Apparently they were more like Europeans then Africans, sounds like a strong candidate for fully human. He had type A+ blood, Caucasian, adapted to cold weather...etc.

Really haven't dug into this one but if this guy was walking down the street I'm sure he could pass for human. He would probably be asked to put his shirt on, but I dunno, he looks like he's in pretty good shape...maybe not.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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sfs

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Steve, I'm just curious really. Aren't you just a little bit skeptical of fossilized DNA. I haven't really pursued it but it seems hard to imagine that you could get a complete sequence.
I was highly skeptical of ancient DNA, but these guys jumped through an impressive set of hoops to make sure that they weren't looking at contamination, and to deal with the much higher error rate (caused by chemical changes to the DNA over the years). What they ended up with, which was about two thirds of the genome if I remember correctly, is persuasive.
 
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