NDEs - Relevant or not so much?

JYJ said:

And how does the unconscious mind, the oxygen starved brain, become aware of other goings on in or near to the same location as is the subject that the ordinary conscious brain may not detect?

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Your unconscious is wired to your senses the same as mine is.

I once slept through my radio alarm by imagining a rock concert, so I am sure you can still hear when you are unconscious. I often dream of being late when I have overslept or have taken a day off, so I know I am aware of time while unconscious.

And what, exactly, is a hallucination? From whence do they originate. Has a part of the brain been discovered which is home to these?

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Dreams? Yes, they are caused by the brain.

And how can it be that we sometimes hear Christians arguing against these phenomena when they, above all others, should certainly believe in the spirit world which is known to them as heaven? Is this belief a question of "yes" when it follows death but "no" when it occurs during a short time when the body is very close to death?

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I don't have a clue on this one, I'm not Christian.

Your mind is very powerful, it can create placebo effects and even aid in the healing process through positive thinking. In fact I am pretty sure that the entire religious experience (which must be made up in at least some cases) is created within minds so I have no idea why people are so surprised that some people when their minds perceive them close to death, start having death related mental images in concert with their religious ideals.

If I had never heard of a NDE I am sure I would predict that people would have them based upon what I know about people.

NZEN said:

If NDEs cannot be considered valid, what more convincing evidence is there which we can base the bible on?

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Well if I used NDE's I could prove any religion as they tend to follow multiple ones.

I don't know, go find some and THEN figure out what to believe.

You are already demonstrateing that you don't have an evidence based perspective you have a "I want to prove my religion true" perspective.

Also, if a person's consciousness reduced to nothing, how can it be here in the first place? If it comes from nothing, can't it come back from nothing? If it comes from something, doesn't it already have an infinitely long existence?

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Consciousness is likely a biological process, and like any other it can be broken. You may as well argue that you can not be killed by interrupting your metabolism.

And then we hit the wall with the "Arrangement" theory and the brain starts to hurt - The whole consciousness being a force essentially created by (as opposed to stored in) a bunch of mixed up pieces of other things and electricity. I find this hard to believe - Conscious seems to be one thing that is real (Possibly the only real thing), and non-physical.

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I have no reason to pander to your philosophical biases towards idealism.

NZEN said:

Well, actually you're wrong. I'm surprised and disappointed to hear that from my fellow agnostic.

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That would be me misreading your posts. Sorry for any offence.

What I was trying to say, in a nutshell, is that if we can disregard NDEs, why can't we disregard the bible or any other assertion about what happens after death; What do we have that's more convincing?

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We can disregard all non objective "evidence" for God, especially when weighted with similar evidence for different God or not God and consistently looked at, brings us to multiple conclusions.

Or, simply put, a consistent evidence based approach doesn’t lead us to either God or Christianity or any particular religion.

Or, simply put, a consistent evidence based approach doesn’t lead us to either God or Christianity or any particular religion.[/quote]


No. But thousands of years ago such evidence may well have led the humans of the time to become aware of visitors they then called "gods". The entire Old Testament might well be nothing else but accounts of the real history of those times and nothing whatever to do with any supreme being.

???? Could well be. It would explain all the un-godly verses found here and there.

JYJ said:

No. But thousands of years ago such evidence may well have led the humans of the time to become aware of visitors they then called "gods". The entire Old Testament might well be nothing else but accounts of the real history of those times and nothing whatever to do with any supreme being.

???? Could well be. It would explain all the un-godly verses found here and there.

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You are obviously not listening to a word I say.