Nazarene question

[MrJim]

I looked at the Nazarene website and it spoke of bapitizing "young children". Is this the same as infant baptism. I understood this baptism to be at the discretion of the parent but the term "young children" kinda threw me.

Thanks
(we have 2 Nazarene churches in town-one is Hispanic)

 

[silentpoet]

They can babtize infants, but it is not very common. I took the entrance class and the question came up. My pastor said he had never done it(if I recall correctly), but that they had a ritual for it. And what do you mean by young? From my experience in the Church of Christ kids usually get babtized in the low teens or so. The children I have seen since I joined this church are a few years younger.

 

[desert_island_1]

Most people choose to have their babies dedicated. This is where the church and parents agree to raise the child in the church and teach them about God and such. I have myself never seen a child under the age of 7 or 8 baptised. These children had chosen themselves to get baptised.

Kristy

 

[HeatherJay]

I have seen infant baptisms in my Church of the Nazarene...it's basically the same thing as a dedication service, just with a little water (the pastor makes the sign of the cross on the baby's forehead).

It's made clear during the ceremony that we do not believe that baptism is necessary to the child's salvation...we believe that children are covered by grace. The infant baptism is simply a covenent made between the parents, the church, and God to bring the child up in the ways of the Lord...and the child would need to confirm at a later age and make the decision for Christ on his/her own. Infant baptism is also a plea for prevenient grace in the child's life ("the grace that goes before").

As for kid's choosing on their own to be baptised (believer's baptism), the youngest I've seen in our church was 4. My own daughter will be baptised during the next baptism service...she's 7 (and I know beyond doubt that the Lord laid it on her heart to be saved and baptised...she truly "gets it." ).

 

[MrJim]

I have seen infant baptisms in my Church of the Nazarene...it's basically the same thing as a dedication service, just with a little water (the pastor makes the sign of the cross on the baby's forehead).

It's made clear during the ceremony that we do not believe that baptism is necessary to the child's salvation...we believe that children are covered by grace. The infant baptism is simply a covenent made between the parents, the church, and God to bring the child up in the ways of the Lord...and the child would need to confirm at a later age and make the decision for Christ on his/her own. Infant baptism is also a plea for prevenient grace in the child's life ("the grace that goes before").

As for kid's choosing on their own to be baptised (believer's baptism), the youngest I've seen in our church was 4. My own daughter will be baptised during the next baptism service...she's 7 (and I know beyond doubt that the Lord laid it on her heart to be saved and baptised...she truly "gets it." ).

Ok, sounds like it's accepted but not oft used. You mentioned that the child would need to confirm at a later stage. Is there a formal "confirmation" or is it simply the child giving testimony of a decision to follow Christ?

 

[HeatherJay]

There's no formal confirmation class given, as in some churches. And even though people often stand up to testify during church, there's no "requirement" for anyone to come in front of the church to testify before they can be baptised. We don't believe a public profession of faith is necessary...God knows, and that's what really matters.

There's a reaffirmation service that happens at the same time as new baptisms...anyone can reaffirm their baptism if they feel led (not just those baptised as infants). This reaffirmation can happen with or without the water. Many choose to be immersed during this reaffirmation. This is NOT a re-baptism...we believe in one baptism. But allowing people to reaffirm their baptisms often solidifies the reasons that we're baptised to begin with. But, it's made clear, that God does not require reaffirmation of baptism in this way...it's solely for the benefit of the individual.

 

[MakeItSo]

Ok, sounds like it's accepted but not oft used. You mentioned that the child would need to confirm at a later stage. Is there a formal "confirmation" or is it simply the child giving testimony of a decision to follow Christ?

The difference between dedication and the Catholic doctrine of "infant baptism" has to do with original sin.

The Nazarene doctrine does not teach that dedicating a child is the same as "baptism".

I was born, dedicated and raised in the Nazarene church and the basic principles of water baptism teaching comes from the "Born Again" experience.

If a child receives Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are encouraged to be water baptised according to the example of Holy Scriptures.

When one dedicates their child they are saying (parents, relatives and church family) that they are committing themselves to raising the child in the admonition of Christ Jesus, as the Bible teaches parents to do. It is a ceramony for the parents rather than the child. While a child can be dedicated to Christ, in no way does the faith of the Nazarene church go against Biblical teaching of the born again experience.

Now, saying that, they do tend to push a child into receiving Christ Jesus as early as possible because they do not believe in a "blanket" idea that a child is "saved" until they receive Christ. While they do not teach that infants and little toddlers go to hell if they die before receiving Christ, they often times push a child to accepting Jesus before they know or understand that they even need a Savior.

I received Christ at 6 years old in the Nazarene Church. It would take me another 12 years before I understood, fully, what living for Christ really was.

The Nazarenes know full well that one must be "born again" but they do not let the Spirit of the Lord draw the children to the altar of repentance. I know for myself, guilt and condemnation was the reason I came to Christ, not a sincere heart of repentance (if a child of 6 can make that distinction).

While I do not condemn the church for pushing salvation on the youngsters, I believe that it is the teaching that needs to truly change if children are going to know and understand that it is sin Jesus died for and it is sin that separates one from God.

I don't think I had an understanding at 6 that to truly be born again, one must believe they are a sinner, first and foremost.

I just thought everyone was to receive Jesus because He died on a cross for us. I had no clue that it was sin He died for and took my punishment on Himself.

I wish sunday-school teachers would stop acting like kids need to just give their "hearts" to Jesus rather than their lives.

 

[MakeItSo]

There's no formal confirmation class given, as in some churches. And even though people often stand up to testify during church, there's no "requirement" for anyone to come in front of the church to testify before they can be baptised. We don't believe a public profession of faith is necessary...God knows, and that's what really matters.

There's a reaffirmation service that happens at the same time as new baptisms...anyone can reaffirm their baptism if they feel led (not just those baptised as infants). This reaffirmation can happen with or without the water. Many choose to be immersed during this reaffirmation. This is NOT a re-baptism...we believe in one baptism. But allowing people to reaffirm their baptisms often solidifies the reasons that we're baptised to begin with. But, it's made clear, that God does not require reaffirmation of baptism in this way...it's solely for the benefit of the individual.

What Nazarene church did you go to?

I've never even heard of such doctrines as you are saying.

"Reaffirmation?"

I am of 5 generations of Nazarenes, including my great-great grandparents starting a Nazarene church in the hills of West Virgina and I've never heard of such a doctrine.

The only time a pastor encourages a "re-baptism" has to do with a back-slidden believer.

 

[HeatherJay]

What Nazarene church did you go to?

I've never even heard of such doctrines as you are saying.

"Reaffirmation?"

I am of 5 generations of Nazarenes, including my great-great grandparents starting a Nazarene church in the hills of West Virgina and I've never heard of such a doctrine.

The only time a pastor encourages a "re-baptism" has to do with a back-slidden believer.

I said we do not believe in re-baptism (even with a back-slidden believer)...we believe in one baptism.

And I DO go to a Church of the Nazarene...not "did."

And I was simply stating what is done at my own church, in my own experience...obviously your experience has been different.

Reaffirmation of Baptism using water is a Wesleyan tradition...the UMC also practices it, though the pastor rarely uses it to annoint (lest it be viewed as a "re-baptism"...often the one recieving the blessing will touch the water in the font themselves, or sprinkle themselves).

We're doing nothing different in my church. It's an option for those feeling the need to reaffirm their baptisms to use water in a similar way. Often those re-affirming with water DO feel they've back-slidden...the water (for them, not for God) is a symbol of a new start.

But we're ALL encouraged at each and every baptism to re-affirm our own baptisms...not publicly, not by diving into the creek or anything, lol, but privately, in our own hearts...so we can all realize and appreciate the precious gift we've been given when we obey God's call to follow Him.

And would you like the actual name of my church of the Nazarene? Maybe you'd like to share yours also? Or the names of the churches all your relations have attended? Sorry, I just don't see how that's relevent, but I'll tell you the name of my church through a PM if you'd really like to know.

BTW, welcome to CF and to Wesley's Parish.

 

[HeatherJay]

The difference between dedication and the Catholic doctrine of "infant baptism" has to do with original sin.

The Nazarene doctrine does not teach that dedicating a child is the same as "baptism".

I was born, dedicated and raised in the Nazarene church and the basic principles of water baptism teaching comes from the "Born Again" experience.

If a child receives Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are encouraged to be water baptised according to the example of Holy Scriptures.

When one dedicates their child they are saying (parents, relatives and church family) that they are committing themselves to raising the child in the admonition of Christ Jesus, as the Bible teaches parents to do. It is a ceramony for the parents rather than the child. While a child can be dedicated to Christ, in no way does the faith of the Nazarene church go against Biblical teaching of the born again experience.

Again, you and I have had different experiences with the Church of the Nazarene.

The Church of the Nazarene does perform a ceremony, at the request of the parents, for infant baptism...water included. As I said before, though...it's made clear that the purpose of baptism is not salvation. In an infant baptism, it serves as a dedication of the child into the Hands of God, and a covenent made by the parents and the congregation to encourage and lead the child in the ways of the Lord. And, as a pleas for prevenient grace in the child's life.

Now, saying that, they do tend to push a child into receiving Christ Jesus as early as possible because they do not believe in a "blanket" idea that a child is "saved" until they receive Christ. While they do not teach that infants and little toddlers go to hell if they die before receiving Christ, they often times push a child to accepting Jesus before they know or understand that they even need a Savior.

I find this to be categorically untrue of my own church, and probably many others...I'm sure that there are some that "push" children into accepting Christ or being baptised, but it's not been my experience at all with the Church of the Nazarene.

I received Christ at 6 years old in the Nazarene Church. It would take me another 12 years before I understood, fully, what living for Christ really was.

Even as an adult, God does not require a full understanding of living for Christ, thank God. Because the majority of Christian adults don't have a full grasp of what that means either. Having a full understanding is not required before you can fall before the Throne of Grace. Feeling a true, deep, NEED for forgiveness, and a true desire to want Jesus in your heart is all that's required...and that's definitely within the mental grasp of a young child.

The Nazarenes know full well that one must be "born again" but they do not let the Spirit of the Lord draw the children to the altar of repentance. I know for myself, guilt and condemnation was the reason I came to Christ, not a sincere heart of repentance (if a child of 6 can make that distinction).

Again, categorically untrue of all Nazarene Churches. I'm sorry if that's been your experience (that makes me sad for you ), but it most certainly has not been mine. There is no guilt, no condemnation placed upon children. They each are allowed to come in God's own time...and none are made to feel guilty if their time is not the same as anyone elses.

While I do not condemn the church for pushing salvation on the youngsters, I believe that it is the teaching that needs to truly change if children are going to know and understand that it is sin Jesus died for and it is sin that separates one from God.

I don't think I had an understanding at 6 that to truly be born again, one must believe they are a sinner, first and foremost.

I just thought everyone was to receive Jesus because He died on a cross for us. I had no clue that it was sin He died for and took my punishment on Himself.

I wish sunday-school teachers would stop acting like kids need to just give their "hearts" to Jesus rather than their lives.

Yet again, I'm very sorry for your experience with this sort of guilt and condemnation, but this is just not true of all Nazarene churches. I can tell you it's most certainly not true of my own.

I mentioned that my 7 year old just recently gave her heart to Jesus, and she'll soon be baptised. Let me tell ya, no one was pushing her into giving her heart and life to Jesus. She knew about sin, she knew why Jesus died...and she was truly feeling God calling her to invite Jesus in.

She asked me, of her own accord, to pray with her one night at bedtime, to lead her in prayer to ask God to forgive her, and to ask Jesus to live in her. Soon after that, we attended a baptism at our church. Afterwards, again, of her own accord, she came to me and said, "Mommy, I heard God tell me to get baptised. Can I be baptised?"

I truly believe that God DOES speak to children. He calls them...just like He calls adults. I think it's beautiful that the Church of the Nazarene recognizes that call.

No one should be coerced into accepting Jesus, or being baptised...that's just sad to me on a bunch of different levels.

But to say it's true of all nazarene churches is just false.

 

[MrJim]

Reaffirming with water isn't unheard of...Catholics do it when they cross themselves with Holy Water when they enter the church building. I do it when visiting a Catholic church.

Good info, thanks folks!

 

[MakeItSo]

Again, you and I have had different experiences with the Church of the Nazarene.

The Church of the Nazarene does perform a ceremony, at the request of the parents, for infant baptism...water included. As I said before, though...it's made clear that the purpose of baptism is not salvation. In an infant baptism, it serves as a dedication of the child into the Hands of God, and a covenent made by the parents and the congregation to encourage and lead the child in the ways of the Lord. And, as a pleas for prevenient grace in the child's life.




I find this to be categorically untrue of my own church, and probably many others...I'm sure that there are some that "push" children into accepting Christ or being baptised, but it's not been my experience at all with the Church of the Nazarene.

Even as an adult, God does not require a full understanding of living for Christ, thank God. Because the majority of Christian adults don't have a full grasp of what that means either. Having a full understanding is not required before you can fall before the Throne of Grace. Feeling a true, deep, NEED for forgiveness, and a true desire to want Jesus in your heart is all that's required...and that's definitely within the mental grasp of a young child.



Again, categorically untrue of all Nazarene Churches. I'm sorry if that's been your experience (that makes me sad for you ), but it most certainly has not been mine. There is no guilt, no condemnation placed upon children. They each are allowed to come in God's own time...and none are made to feel guilty if their time is not the same as anyone elses.



Yet again, I'm very sorry for your experience with this sort of guilt and condemnation, but this is just not true of all Nazarene churches. I can tell you it's most certainly not true of my own.

I mentioned that my 7 year old just recently gave her heart to Jesus, and she'll soon be baptised. Let me tell ya, no one was pushing her into giving her heart and life to Jesus. She knew about sin, she knew why Jesus died...and she was truly feeling God calling her to invite Jesus in.

She asked me, of her own accord, to pray with her one night at bedtime, to lead her in prayer to ask God to forgive her, and to ask Jesus to live in her. Soon after that, we attended a baptism at our church. Afterwards, again, of her own accord, she came to me and said, "Mommy, I heard God tell me to get baptised. Can I be baptised?"

I truly believe that God DOES speak to children. He calls them...just like He calls adults. I think it's beautiful that the Church of the Nazarene recognizes that call.

No one should be coerced into accepting Jesus, or being baptised...that's just sad to me on a bunch of different levels.

But to say it's true of all nazarene churches is just false.

Well, I was raped by MY Nazarene Pastor at 8 years old, so yes, you might say that I am a "little" jaded about Nararenedom as a whole.

As far as the words "reaffirmation baptism" is a word that was never used at the "SOUTH GATE CHURCH OF THE NAZARENE IN SOUTHGATE CALIFORNIA", see, I can say it quite plainly without feeling like I need to hide my church affiliation in a closet. However, it is obvious that the Nazarene doctrines are not the same from church to church because having an infant "baptism" is a Cathoic ritual not performed at any Nazarene church I attended throughout my childhood outside of a 'dedication' of the child to God. And as far as encouraging a child to get "born again" before they understand the need for redemption is NOT something I believe in. While we are to train and teach children about Christ I do not believe a child of 4 years old knows how to repent of one's sin.

For without repentance of sin and receiving Christ for the penalty of sin you are asking a child to have an "event" in their life, not walk with Christ. This is the very reason many children grow up and do not have a serious relationship with Christ but rather think that because they said one prayer in their early childhood, they are "born again", yet, Scripture clearly states that we are to walk out our salvation DAILY before God. I know several Nazarene kids who grew up and pursued witchcraft and homosexuality and all manner of evil and their confession of Christ at 5 or 6 years old never "changed their life".

Let's line up some "doctrine" with Scripture, shall we?

God says the heart of man is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9). When you are born again, God gives you a new nature that you might desire holy things, now and in heaven.

REPENT and be baptised! Can an infant repent? Can I child of 3, 4 or 5 know true heart repentance? Some can, I'm sure, most, no way. It isn't until I child knows and understands and comes into the knowledge of right and wrong, sin and righteousness that they have a true heart that can "repent" for one's sin and receive the free gift of the cleansing of their sin through Christ's shed blood.

So how and when is one spiritually begotten? When does this Spirit of God enter the mind? Peter said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy [Spirit]” (Acts 2:38).

John the Baptiser cried out, REPENT! Those that repented of their sins were THEN baptised in water.

I grew up with Jesus on my lips. From the time of my earliest memory I knew about Jesus, who He was, what He did, but I didn't understand WHY I needed a Savior. I knew He was the Savior of the world but it wasn't PERSONAL YET!

Remember Jesus' own word when He said in Matthew 7:21-23 -

Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?" And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness."

Being born again is not a religion, it is reality. Just because a child confesses a doctrine that their Mommy & Daddy taught them doesn't mean they have chosen Christ with their whole heart, have repented of their "own sins" and have received redemption through the blood of Christ Jesus.

While the Gospel is simple, it is NOT merely to get a child to confess Jesus or to get them baptised. This is a primary focus of Christian parents, however, but it is better that they know WHY they need a Savior, not just that He is the Savior.

Take it from me, someone who left the faith and pursued many forums of occultism. I didn't see the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in my church, I saw religion that limited God, through out the Holy Spirit 2000 years ago and never gave the reality of our sins in "Sunday School", merely just Bible stories that showed a Supernatural God of the Old Testament and a God in the New Testament that refuses to be Himself anymore.

Baptism of children should be used with discretion and should be fully understood by the child before choosing to be baptised. I do believe that a child can and does get baptised before they are born again in the Nazarene church because that is what is expected of them.

Where is the "new creature" in Christ Jesus in that child when they come up out of the water, that's what I want to know.

Am I saying all children are being forced? NO!

I am saying that the Nazarenes push their babies into a "doctrine" that isn't understood by MOST children.

I don't believe a baby can confess their sins before God and man at 3 years old, no I don't. Some kids don't even get a full grasp of right and wrong until they are about 8 or 9. Sorry, but that is the majority of children I have been around. And I have taught youth and children's church before. Most of them are still eating their boogers, I really doubt they have a working knowledge of the sin nature or the need for a Savior.

 

[MakeItSo]

Reaffirming with water isn't unheard of...Catholics do it when they cross themselves with Holy Water when they enter the church building. I do it when visiting a Catholic church.

Good info, thanks folks!

Reaffirmation might be a general practiced in the Catholic Church but NOT in the Nazarene faith. I've never heard of such a thing practiced by Nazarenes. However, I have seen someone be re-baptised after they lived in sin for 30 or 40 years and rededicated their life to Christ.

 

[HeatherJay]

Reaffirmation might be a general practiced in the Catholic Church but NOT in the Nazarene faith. I've never heard of such a thing practiced by Nazarenes. However, I have seen someone be re-baptised after they lived in sin for 30 or 40 years and rededicated their life to Christ.

Maybe a more correct statement would be that it's not been practiced by the nazarene churches you've been associated with. I can testify to the fact that your experience is not universal to all Nazarene churches. I'm not denying the experience you've had...only saying that there are many great nazarene churches in the world that don't behave in the manner you've described.

You're welcome to your opinion, of course...but there's no need for the rudeness and remarks slamming my personal experiences, my church, and my faith.

But, be blessed, sister.

 

[HeatherJay]

Reaffirmation might be a general practiced in the Catholic Church but NOT in the Nazarene faith. I've never heard of such a thing practiced by Nazarenes. However, I have seen someone be re-baptised after they lived in sin for 30 or 40 years and rededicated their life to Christ.

Because you've not heard of it, because you've not experienced it, does that make it wrong?

As far as Nazarenes and Catholics not being the same...well, we're far more alike that we are different, that's for sure.

 

[herev]

closed for staff review

 

[Sophia7]

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[vicarius]

I too am a 5th generation Nazarene. I am also a graduate of a Nazarene university, as are my, parents and grandfather. My grandfather served as a Nazarene pastor for over 40 years. My in-laws are graduates of the Nazarene Bible College and are both ordained elders in the Church of the Nazarene.

The Church of the Nazarene was formed in 1908 by the merger of several Wesleyan Holiness groups in North America. These groups had differences in practices that they had to work out as part of the merger. They determined that some things were non-essential and others were essential. The Statement of Belief on page 39 of the Nazarene Manual defines those things deemed essential. (http://www.nazarene.org/pdf/Manual2005_09.pdf) In addressing their differences they proclaimed “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty and in all things love.”

The Nazarene church does allow for infant baptism. It does not demand a particular form baptism either. Therefore we can be baptized by sprinkling, pouring or immersion. (see page 36 of the Manual)

I have lived in several parts of the U.S., West Coast, Great Plains, Mid-Atlantic, South and Desert South West. I have observed differences in practices in each region, and sometimes even among churches on the same district. While I don’t recall seeing an infant baptism, I know it is permitted. I have seen people who were baptized as infants request baptism as adults as an affirmation of their faith. I have also seen people who have spent time away from Christ request to be baptized as part of their renewed commitment. I haven’t seen a pastor refuse to perform such a baptism.

While we have differences in practices, we still need to remember to be united in essentials, give liberty in non-essentials and approach all things in love.

 

[HeatherJay]

I too am a 5th generation Nazarene. I am also a graduate of a Nazarene university, as are my, parents and grandfather. My grandfather served as a Nazarene pastor for over 40 years. My in-laws are graduates of the Nazarene Bible College and are both ordained elders in the Church of the Nazarene.

The Church of the Nazarene was formed in 1908 by the merger of several Wesleyan Holiness groups in North America. These groups had differences in practices that they had to work out as part of the merger. They determined that some things were non-essential and others were essential. The Statement of Belief on page 39 of the Nazarene Manual defines those things deemed essential. (http://www.nazarene.org/pdf/Manual2005_09.pdf) In addressing their differences they proclaimed “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty and in all things love.”

The Nazarene church does allow for infant baptism. It does not demand a particular form baptism either. Therefore we can be baptized by sprinkling, pouring or immersion. (see page 36 of the Manual)

I have lived in several parts of the U.S., West Coast, Great Plains, Mid-Atlantic, South and Desert South West. I have observed differences in practices in each region, and sometimes even among churches on the same district. While I don’t recall seeing an infant baptism, I know it is permitted. I have seen people who were baptized as infants request baptism as adults as an affirmation of their faith. I have also seen people who have spent time away from Christ request to be baptized as part of their renewed commitment. I haven’t seen a pastor refuse to perform such a baptism.

While we have differences in practices, we still need to remember to be united in essentials, give liberty in non-essentials and approach all things in love.

As always, well spoken, brother.

 

[Sophia7]

Closing thread due to rule violations.