Natural Evil

Achilles6129 said:

This isn't a thread about evidence supporting the authenticity of Scripture. I think we might actually get this thread removed for talking about such a topic in this forum. However, if we are allowed to talk about it, then someone could absolutely start a thread about it or I'd be happy to do so.

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You used scripture to support your position, did you not.

Another person is allowed to question you on how you support your position, I do believe.

Now, do you believe the claims in other holy books are evidence of those claims or do you just believe the bible is evidence?

Not at all. Any book can claim to be the word of God, that's meaningless. What I'm saying is that there is good evidence that the Bible is the word of God. I don't think we're allowed to discuss that on this forum, but if we are I would be more than happy to get into a discussion about it.

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If we can't discuss the evidence you claim to have to support what you state above, that would mean; anyone can just cite scripture as truth and then state; sorry we can't talk about why this is so.

Achilles6129 said:

I believe there is a good amount of evidence (outside of one's personal experience) supporting the Bible being the word of God. I do not believe there's a good amount of evidence supporting other holy books being the word of God.

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Ok, that is your opinion.

Achilles6129 said:

I don't believe in evolution.

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Or um, all the earth sciences it seems.

Why should we care what you think?

It should give you pause that you've basically dismissed hundreds of years of objective evidence at this point to suppose your views are true.

See post #73 for my retort.

See above. Also, I didn't say that all natural evils were the cause of human sin. I said that some in the past were (as per Scripture). If some in the past were, then *perhaps* some of them today (and historically) were as well. And certainly some will be in the future, per Revelation.

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You said hurricanes were the result of human sin, now just some of them?

How do we tell the difference between a sin caused hurricane and a natural one?

Not at all. Any book can claim to be the word of God, that's meaningless. What I'm saying is that there is good evidence that the Bible is the word of God. I don't think we're allowed to discuss that on this forum, but if we are I would be more than happy to get into a discussion about it.

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You aren't allowed to present the evidence that the Bible is the word of God in the philosophy section of a Christian forum?

If such evidence were so compelling why would a forum dedicated to spreading Christianity want us to not discuss it as men do?

kristina411 said:

The "laws of physics" did not exist, as we know them, in the garden.

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And your evidence for this is?....

It was a completely different world until sin accompanied it.

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And your evidence for this is?....

It wouldn't be "faith" or "belief" if every person knew with certainty of its accuracy.

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I am certain that the laws of physics were the same, billions of years before any human beings existed. This is based on evidence.

I really do have to be going though lol

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Buh-bye.

essentialsaltes said:

And your evidence for this is?....



And your evidence for this is?....



I am certain that the laws of physics were the same, billions of years before any human beings existed. This is based on evidence.



Buh-bye.

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Lol! Evidence!

I am done showing evidence to those who refuse to hear. I also said that the above was my belief and you have no "evidence" to prove my "inaccuracy" so we are clearly at a stalemate to which I say, have a great day.

kristina411 said:

Lol! Evidence!

I am done showing evidence to those who refuse to hear. I also said that the above was my belief and you have no "evidence" to prove my "inaccuracy" so we are clearly at a stalemate to which I say, have a great day.

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I don't think you ever started "showing evidence". You did make claims though, I will give you that.

kristina411 said:

Lol! Evidence!

I am done showing evidence to those who refuse to hear.

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Done? When did you start?

I also said that the above was my belief and you have no "evidence" to prove my "inaccuracy" so we are clearly at a stalemate to which I say, have a great day.

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Your statements are enough evidence to show that your position is self-contradictory. Your refusal to clarify is not the same as being at a stalemate.

Achilles6129 said:

That would be a great question to ask the administrators.

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It's a rhetorical question, everyone already knows the answer. The evidence was so good that this forum decided that apologetics were counter productive.

You don't get to simply assert that the Bible trumps natural observations unless you can show you know the bible is true. If you feel that you can't do that here then here obviously isn't the place to discuss things with people who differ on such matters.

We are not going to have a discussion of philosophy where questions about the truth of your assertions are "out of bounds" that is what we call a lecture.

So, continue to hide behind the sight administration if you so desire instead of enlightening us with the veracity of your claims.

It speaks volumes.

Achilles6129 said:

Hi,

If you'd like evidence that the Bible is the word of God, then there are plenty of places online that you can go. A simple Google search would suffice. I'm sure there are also many other threads on this forum that deal with this subject, though they may be in Christians-only areas. Good luck!

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Was one of your apologetics going to be that people died because they thought Christianity was true?

Is the new problem "the forum administration may get mad at me if I try to discuss this" a bridge to far for our modern Christians.

Talk about first world problems.

Were those natural events always evil or did they become evil once live existed?

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)? Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do? Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist, and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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Achilles,
Excellent questions! First off some definitions: There are two kinds of evil: moral and physical.

As you probably know morality pertains to human acts. In fact every act we make is potentially moral, although we don't always consider some acts to be moral because they are very insignificant in respect to others. For instance most would not consider taking a penny that is not theirs a sin yet we would more likely if it were say, a thousand pennies (10 dollars) or more. This topic gets into St. John's distinction between sin that kills the soul (mortal) and less serious sin (venial). We call this kind of sin actual or personal to distinguish it from Original Sin, the latter being a state we inherit from Adam and Eve. If our first parents had not sinned they would have maintained the state of grace they were create in, and passed it on to their progeny. Unfortunately they disobeyed God and lost their sanctifying grace. What one no longer possesses they cannot pass on so we have to obtain this grace, through Christ, at baptism.

Physical evil on the other hand is also due to the Fall of our first parents and how it affected creation, including human beings (sickness and physical ailments). In order to understand it we need to define evil in general. Evil, moral or physical is not an entity but a lack of some necessary good found in being. So moral evil is the lack of a necessary good act we should do; physical evil is the lack of some thing that material beings should have but don't. Rust on iron or decay on a leaf are examples of physical evil. All physical evil is a defect found in nature.

Now as for why God allows evil, and one can apply this question to sin too... St. Thomas Aquinas said God allows evil because He can draw a greater good from it. We cannot do this but God can because in His omnipotence and omniscient Wisdom, He is the cause of all goods... moral and physical. God can repair nature and in fact lift it up to beyond what it was initially. He does so with grace. Scripture informs us that in the end God will restore everything back to it's proper order, glorifying human beings, lifting us higher than angels, even putting men in charge of judging angels.

The point is in the next life all wrongs will be righted, and God's judgment on the wicked will be manifest; while His mercy on those who turned their love toward God, and accepted His will for their life, out of faith, will be vindicated in eternal happiness seeing God "face to face." This life is less than a drop in the bucket of eternity and the worst evil we can experience, although not insignificant to us here in this life, will pale next to God's infinite love. We will see that God did not cause any evil but allowed it in order to exercise our freedom and faith.

essentialsaltes said:

And your evidence for this is?....



And your evidence for this is?....



I am certain that the laws of physics were the same, billions of years before any human beings existed. This is based on evidence.



Buh-bye.

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Essentialsaltes,
Allow me to chime in on this... sadly Kristina411 is misinformed. In the Garden of Eden the laws of physics did apply as they do today. Yet in that pristine state there was no physical evil. No decay of living matter, no rust in iron, etc... Gravity was in full operation so if something above our head dropped one could be harmed if hit by it. The difference between that Garden and us now is that, Adam and Eve had keener senses and would have avoided such an accident. I suspect volcanos were not a part of the landscape in the Garden, but if it was then human beings would be able to avoid such dangers, again because they had a much clearer ability to reason than we do now. There was an integrity between their body and mind that we no longer possess since the Fall.

That you think the laws of physics existed in the distant past before you were around to observe is not a direct evidence as you suppose. You may deduce they were from the study of empirical science but in doing so you must interpolate, that is make inferences. Your belief that those laws applied in the same way they do now comes from taking two known truths and inferring another. You are looking back at effect to cause in order to judge this. Certainly no one is there to observe it as the scientific method requires. I'm not saying this is invalid or that science is in some way suspect; rather that it is not the kind of evidence you insist Christians give for their belief in theistic propositions. Anti-theists set the standard high for the theist but don't hold themselves to the same standard... and this is just not honest.

As you should have gathered from what I've said already, I also hold that the laws of physics we have discovered did hold back even in the Garden. I know this by the scientific reasoning I just described. Apart from empirical science's input I can assume there is no need to think otherwise. Then again, even if the scientific method could prove the laws of physics have changed, which I don't think they can, no evidence of science now points to such a change.

So I agree with you on this point, Essentialsalte, that physical laws have been in effect since the inception of our universe. Nevertheless I insist you hold Christians to the same standard of evidence you hold yourself so loosely too when it comes to their claims about the moral, immaterial and supernatural realms of our world.

Achilles6129 said:

What are everyone's ideas on natural evil (tsunamis, earthquakes, plagues, etc.)?

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I wouldn´t call natural disaster "natural evil", to begin with.

Why does God allow these things to occur to the people they do?

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i have no opinion on that hypothetical question. I mean, I don´t even know that a God exists.

Or, if you're an antitheist, has natural evil convinced you that God doesn't exist,

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I´m not an anti-theist, I am an atheist.
No, that would be complete misconclusion, wouldn´t it?

and do you believe there's any explanation at all for why God might allow it?

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I suspect that at some point in any such "explanation" the "God´s ways are mysterious, beyond our understanding" will be essential part.
Personally, I can´t help the feeling that Biblegod loves drama. That would be my explanation. Now, why an omniscient - knowing the results in advance - entity would get something out of drama, is beyond my understanding.

kristina411 said:

It is a cause and effect situation.

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Maybe you could give us a short, rough outline of the causal chain from sin to earthquakes?
Because i can´t seem to fathom such, for the life of me.