NATO cannot be dependent on whims of US President - EU

stevil · Feb 12, 2024

It's an extortion protection racket.

These things are popular with bully gangs and D Trump.
Give us money otherwise bad things will happen.

It's not the first time D Trump has done it.
He extorted the Ukraine president in order to try to win the 2016 election by putting extreme pressure on Zelenski while Russia was knocking at his doors to fabricate an investigation into Joe Biden and to tell USA voters that he is doing the investigation.

Now he is doing it to NATO. Who on earth would instruct Putin to attack your allies? This guy is nuts, it would be insane to vote for him.

trophy33 · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
lol, even more reason for them to build up their military.

It seems to me you do not understand the situation. A country with 11 million people cannot build a military able to defeat Russia. The point of a collective defense is that every member helps as they can, Czech republic helped you in Iraq, in Afghanistan, with hospitals, chemical experts and special forces.

And as others said, your military expenditures would be still similar, with NATO or without, so your taxes change nothing (btw, its mostly financed on debt, not from your taxes).

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

myst33 said:
It seems to me you do not understand the situation. A country with 11 million people cannot build a military able to defeat Russia.

Of course not, it's a percentage of GDP. At least protect yourself or be able to help your neighbor long enough for America to bail you out. Remember what the Nazis did.

Arcangl86 · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
I sided with Trump when he asked NATO to put in their share of defense spending and they didn't.

The thing is the 2% goal was a recommendation that NATO had set internally, not a requirement. A nation being in NATO doesn't mean that other NATO nations get to dictate national defense policy.

Laodicean60 said:
I think NATO is a la carte when you see our role in the world and their support. I remember when we took a stance (sanctions) on Iran years ago France and Germany ignored it and were still trading with them.

So? NATO is a military alliance, not an economic one.

Laodicean60 said:
Of course, they need our protection and want to spread Western ideology but we can't afford to do the heavy lifting anymore. Our tax dollars are given away overseas and the country is going broke and that's when NATO falls.

Again, NATO is primarily a defensive military alliance. US choosing to base US forces all over the world isn't a result of NATO.

trophy33 · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
Of course not, it's a percentage of GDP. At least protect yourself or be able to help your neighbor long enough for America to bail you out. Remember what the Nazis did.

There is a heavy modernization going on. For example, instead of 12 JAS-39 Gripen that served us quite well for a long time, we will purchase 24 F-35.

USA is the strongest player in NATO by far, but if nuclear weapons will not be used, it will not be a net bailout, the EU is also capable of significant defense. And if Russia is stuck for years in the east of Ukraine, its hard to imagine a success against the EU.

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

Arcangl86 said:
So? NATO is a military alliance, not an economic one.

But it takes money to be able to fight wars.

Arcangl86 said:
Again, NATO is primarily a defensive military alliance. US choosing to base US forces all over the world isn't a result of NATO.

lol, densive? Would we think it would be an offensive act if China and Russia aligned with Mexico Canada or the countries in Latin America? I have to question your defensive beliefs.

Hans Blaster · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
But it takes money to be able to fight wars.

lol, densive? Would we think it would be an offensive act if China and Russia aligned with Mexico Canada or the countries in Latin America? I have to question your defensive beliefs.

It is common military practice to place defensive forces in the path of most likely invasion to impede any potential attack against the heart of your territory. That's where NATO forces are "forward deployed".

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
It is common military practice to place defensive forces in the path of most likely invasion to impede any potential attack against the heart of your territory. That's where NATO forces are "forward deployed".

What is America's role in the expansion of NATO is it defensive or offensive to countries in the East, namely China Russia, and the Middle East?

Arcangl86 · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
But it takes money to be able to fight wars.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with your complaint about France and Germany not imposing sanctions on Iran because the US did.

Laodicean60 said:
lol, densive? Would we think it would be an offensive act if China and Russia aligned with Mexico Canada or the countries in Latin America? I have to question your defensive beliefs.

There aren't any formal military alliances, but Russia and China already have deep ties in Latin America. I'm sure it would be seen as provocative because we consider those countries to be under our jurisdiction, but assuming it's arranged under similar terms to NATO, it still wouldn't be an offensive act.

Hans Blaster · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
What is America's role in the expansion of NATO is it defensive or offensive to countries in the East, namely China Russia, and the Middle East?

We were welcoming? Not sure how that is relevant. Central European nations joined NATO to get collective defense against invasions from outside. (Russia)

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
We were welcoming? Not sure how that is relevant. Central European nations joined NATO to get collective defense against invasions from outside. (Russia)

If our enemies welcomed our close neighbors would we consider it a threat sort of like the Cuban Missle Crisis? We made sure Russia didn't install missiles in Cuba and yet we keep expanding eastward onto these counties' borders. It is relevant if you place yourself in their shoes. Our meddling in the Ukraine election in 2014 is the reason we are in the situation we are in now.

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

Arcangl86 said:
There aren't any formal military alliances, but Russia and China already have deep ties in Latin America.

Do they have any military bases yet? When the BRICS nations create their own military alliance will that be a threat? We have to look at the big picture which Bush didn't do by destabilizing the Middle East. He killed Sadaam for political points (and petrol dollars) because I was for Sadaam's removal but that was due to my ignorance of not seeing the big picture. Iraq and Iran were keeping themselves busy until we meddled. Now look at Iran.

Hans Blaster · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
If our enemies welcomed our close neighbors would we consider it a threat sort of like the Cuban Missle Crisis? We made sure Russia didn't install missiles in Cuba and yet we keep expanding eastward onto these counties' borders. It is relevant if you place yourself in their shoes.

If your former "allies" leave your alliance and join "the enemy" alliance, then perhaps *you* were the problem. (I'm talking to you Russia.)

Laodicean60 said:
Our meddling in the Ukraine election in 2014 is the reason we are in the situation we are in now.

We didn't. The Ukrainian elections in 2014 occurred *AFTER* Russia invaded and were in response to the removal of of the Russian-puppet president.

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

Hans Blaster said:
If your former "allies" leave your alliance and join "the enemy" alliance, then perhaps *you* were the problem. (I'm talking to you Russia.)

We didn't. The Ukrainian elections in 2014 occurred *AFTER* Russia invaded and were in response to the removal of of the Russian-puppet president.

You are correct and this is why we have the BRICS nations forming. Maybe a military alliance someday. I won't post the info about our meddling in 2014 which led to Crimea because it seems most don't read the information posted.

Hans Blaster · Feb 12, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
You are correct and this is why we have the BRICS nations forming. Maybe a military alliance someday.

BRICS is a joke.

Laodicean60 said:
I won't post the info about our meddling in 2014 which led to Crimea because it seems most don't read the information posted.

I know this "information". It is false.

Laodicean60 · Feb 12, 2024

I am bowing out because I don't care to argue we are all going to believe what we believe. BUT I'M RIGHT lol. I got defensive by the Myst33 thread and it evolved to off-topic. I'll defend whether right or left-wing Americans from criticism by foreign nationals. Myst33 I hope I didn't offend you. Peace

trophy33 · Feb 13, 2024

Laodicean60 said:
Myst33 I hope I didn't offend you. Peace

No, its OK, dont worry.

NATO cannot be dependent on whims of US President - EU

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