Native Greek speakers please help

[Daveisonthisforum]

I only speak English so I probably will make a fool of myself here over my Greek question but I can’t find a satisfactory answer anywhere.

Revelation 9:21 talks of sorceries but when I use a Greek lexicon I find pharmakeia which to an English speaker I would have assumed to be related to pharmaceuticals. Commentaries explain it away as sorcerers using drugs in their witchcraft.

When I looked up modern Greek translations and imported the same verse into Google translate it gave the word “drugs”.

There is a big difference at least in modern language between drugs and sorcery. Can anyone who is a native Greek speaker (modern Greek) explain to me how that verse reads in your bible and how you interpret it and in Greek speaking countries is this verse (and other verses using the same word) understood differently than in English speaking countries?

 

[Chesterton]

I only speak English so I probably will make a fool of myself here over my Greek question but I can’t find a satisfactory answer anywhere.

Revelation 9:21 talks of sorceries but when I use a Greek lexicon I find pharmakeia which to an English speaker I would have assumed to be related to pharmaceuticals. Commentaries explain it away as sorcerers using drugs in their witchcraft.

When I looked up modern Greek translations and imported the same verse into Google translate it gave the word “drugs”.

There is a big difference at least in modern language between drugs and sorcery. Can anyone who is a native Greek speaker (modern Greek) explain to me how that verse reads in your bible and how you interpret it and in Greek speaking countries is this verse (and other verses using the same word) understood differently than in English speaking countries?

You might try asking this question in this forum - The Ancient Way - Eastern Orthodox

I think there are some Greek speakers there.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Not a Greek speaker, but I believe it has the sense of "working with herbs".

 

[Chesterton]

Not a Greek speaker, but I believe it has the sense of "working with herbs".

Yes, but there is some overlap with the meaning. A slang term for marijuana is "herb". And when you get to the stronger stuff, there are suggestions of magic involved. From Wiki:

The word "ayahuasca" has been variously translated as "liana of the soul", "liana of the dead", and "spirit liana".[16] In the cosmovision of its users, the ayahuasca is the vine that allows the spirit to wander detached from the body, entering the spiritual world, otherwise forbidden for the alive.​

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I only speak English so I probably will make a fool of myself here over my Greek question but I can’t find a satisfactory answer anywhere.

Revelation 9:21 talks of sorceries but when I use a Greek lexicon I find pharmakeia which to an English speaker I would have assumed to be related to pharmaceuticals. Commentaries explain it away as sorcerers using drugs in their witchcraft.

When I looked up modern Greek translations and imported the same verse into Google translate it gave the word “drugs”.

There is a big difference at least in modern language between drugs and sorcery. Can anyone who is a native Greek speaker (modern Greek) explain to me how that verse reads in your bible and how you interpret it and in Greek speaking countries is this verse (and other verses using the same word) understood differently than in English speaking countries?

I am not a native speaker of Greek, but my understanding is that the false prophets and false religions of that day used hallucinogenic drugs to "open" their minds. Much like LSD today.

 

[HTacianas]

I only speak English so I probably will make a fool of myself here over my Greek question but I can’t find a satisfactory answer anywhere.

Revelation 9:21 talks of sorceries but when I use a Greek lexicon I find pharmakeia which to an English speaker I would have assumed to be related to pharmaceuticals. Commentaries explain it away as sorcerers using drugs in their witchcraft.

When I looked up modern Greek translations and imported the same verse into Google translate it gave the word “drugs”.

There is a big difference at least in modern language between drugs and sorcery. Can anyone who is a native Greek speaker (modern Greek) explain to me how that verse reads in your bible and how you interpret it and in Greek speaking countries is this verse (and other verses using the same word) understood differently than in English speaking countries?

The translators of the King James Version translated it as sorceries. The meaning is actually "drugs". It refers to the practice of using drugs to induce hallucinations and claiming the hallucinations to be prophecies.

 

[RileyG]

Not a Greek speaker, but I believe it has the sense of "working with herbs".

That would make more sense.

 

[John G.]

Modern Greeks use mostly two translations of the New Testament:
The Neophytus Vamvas translation - used by Evangelicals - which keeps much of the archaic language and the Professors' Translation which is in everyday language.
Vamvas keeps the word pharmakeia, the Professors translate it as "manganeia" which is witchcraft through use of drugs.

 

[Daveisonthisforum]

Modern Greeks use mostly two translations of the New Testament:
The Neophytus Vamvas translation - used by Evangelicals - which keeps much of the archaic language and the Professors' Translation which is in everyday language.
Vamvas keeps the word pharmakeia, the Professors translate it as "manganeia" which is witchcraft through use of drugs.

Thank you. Could you tell me if the Greek speaking world understands this verse differently than how it seems to be understood in English speaking countries?

It seems like there is an important difference between sorcery by itself and sorcery through drugs.

I can accept that the word doesn’t mean what it appears to mean to an English speaker but I’m surprised by how difficult it has been to find an explanation online, particularly given how much debate there is around Revelation.

 

[prodromos]

Liddell Scott Jones 1940

φαρμακεία ἡ, use of drugs, esp. of purgatives, Hp. Aph. 1.24, 2.36 (both pl.), PCair. Zen. 18.5 (iii BC), Gal. 15.447, etc. ; αἱ ἄνω φ., i.e. emetics, Arist. Pr. 962a3 ; of abortifacients, Sor. 1.59 ; generally, the use of any kind of drugs, potions, or spells, Pl. Lg. 933b ; pl., Id. Prt. 354a, Ti. 89b, Men. 535.9.
poisoning or witchcraft, D. 40 57, Plb. 6.13.4, POxy. 486.21 (ii AD) ; αἱ περὶ τὰς φαρμακείας, = αἱ φαρμακίδες, Arist. HA 572a22. metaph, remedy, παιδιὰς προσάγειν φαρμακείας χάριν Id. Pol. 1337b41.

Modern Greek uses different terms for sorcery as the old term has become a lot more benign and basically means a pharmacist now. Words change. Horror and terror have similar meanings, but horrific and terrific are now literal opposites.

 

[John G.]

I, personally, don't see much difference in either interpretation. Sorcery back in those days, was performed with drugs. Rendering pharmakeia as sorcery captures the essence of the verse even if a footnote might be helpful to give it its specific meaning.
As far as modern Greeks go... 95% of Greeks are /were adherents of the Orthodox church which is more tradition- and ritual-based than Biblical. Add to that the fact that the Book of Revelation is not their most popular Bible book. Start quoting it and they'll shrink away from you thinking you're a JW. Btw, Revelation is the only book of the NT that is NOT read in the Orthodox liturgy during the year.