Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
I believe it is safe to expect that if the omnipotent Creator of our universe supernaturally and purposefully inspired men to write down His Words, that these unique documents would contain a special quality about them that would distinguish them from any ordinary document. Maybe I am giving God too much credit.
Far more likely that the inspired books would be identified by people who God enabled to do so rather than that the books would have some kind of quality that made them immediately recognisable as canonical scripture.
What? You've got this all backwards. I'm the one putting God up front. I'm giving Him all the credit. It is you that is putting God in the background by crediting men as the primary reason for these books becoming canon.It is not God that you are crediting in your theory but the books. While it is true that you are assigning the cause for the books having a "special quality" it is nevertheless the books that are "special" in your theory and God is in the background.
You prefer? You mean "assume"...right?I prefer to think of the books of sacred scripture as books that God calls the church to identify as special because his Spirit works within the church to make that identification.
I noticed you never really addressed my main points. I stated that it was God's Words (and not church councils) that gave these documents their authority. Do you deny this?Thus God is to the fore and the books are placed in their proper place as witnesses to God's grace in revealing himself to the church. If it takes the Spirit to enable the church to identify the books as canonical then the books themselves do not possess a "special quality" that can be identified without the Spirit's aid, thus the books themselves are books like other books, it is the Spirit that gives life the books have nothing to offer as far as deciding canonicity is concerned.
Are you stating that the books that make up our Bible were ultimately recognized as canonical because of who they were written by AND NOT because of their divinely inspired content?
"Are you stating that the books that make up our Bible were ultimately recognized as canonical because of who they were written by AND NOT because of their divinely inspired content?" No. What I wrote is "[It is] Far more likely that the inspired books would be identified by people who God enabled to do so rather than that the books would have some kind of quality that made them immediately recognisable as canonical scripture." My words are not about the authors of letters or books in the bible. What I referred to is the people who discerned which of the many letters and books available were chosen as canonical scripture while the others were rejected.Are you stating that the books that make up our Bible were ultimately recognized as canonical because of who they were written by AND NOT because of their divinely inspired content?Me said:Far more likely that the inspired books would be identified by people who God enabled to do so rather than that the books would have some kind of quality that made them immediately recognisable as canonical scripture.
To me this sounds like you are claiming that the men behind the words are more important than the words themselves. However, these are not ordinary words. These are God's Words.
Plus, you'd need to explain why not ALL of Paul's letters were preserved as canonical. If it was his authorship that give the ultimate reasoning to canonize a book, then why did some of his work just simply disappear?
"I stated that it was God's Words (and not church councils) that gave these documents their authority. Do you deny this?" The authority of the canonical scriptures is from God and not from the books as books. The books contain some material that would repulse most readers and would not be accepted but for being included in the canon. It is always and in every case God who gives authority to the words of scripture. The church recognised the books as inspired and hence authoritative because they have God as their ultimate author. Those books that were not recognised as canonical are not accounted as authoritative.What? You've got this all backwards. I'm the one putting God up front. I'm giving Him all the credit. It is you that is putting God in the background by crediting men as the primary reason for these books becoming canon.Me said:It is not God that you are crediting in your theory but the books. While it is true that you are assigning the cause for the books having a "special quality" it is nevertheless the books that are "special" in your theory and God is in the background. I prefer to think of the books of sacred scripture as books that God calls the church to identify as special because his Spirit works within the church to make that identification.
I believe the "words" in these books as "special" because they are Gods!
You prefer? You mean "assume"...right? ...
I noticed you never really addressed my main points. I stated that it was God's Words (and not church councils) that gave these documents their authority. Do you deny this?Me said:Thus God is to the fore and the books are placed in their proper place as witnesses to God's grace in revealing himself to the church. If it takes the Spirit to enable the church to identify the books as canonical then the books themselves do not possess a "special quality" that can be identified without the Spirit's aid, thus the books themselves are books like other books, it is the Spirit that gives life the books have nothing to offer as far as deciding canonicity is concerned.
"I stated that it was God's Words (and not church councils) that gave these documents their authority. Do you deny this?" The authority of the canonical scriptures is from God and not from the books as books.
So? Just because some parts of Scripture contain content that is raw and shocking doesn't mean it's God-given authority isn't apparent by those who are indwelled by the very same Person who wrote it.The books contain some material that would repulse most readers and would not be accepted but for being included in the canon.
I'm not sure if I've said anything different.It is always and in every case God who gives authority to the words of scripture. The church recognised the books as inspired and hence authoritative because they have God as their ultimate author. Those books that were not recognised as canonical are not accounted as authoritative.
Let me clarify. I believe that these inspired works already had authority because they were a product produced by God. It is this authority that the church later identified and used to determine which works were canonical or not.
Are you talking about this "Book"?To use the words of our Lord,"Have you not read what God hath said?"
It is sad to see so many people who have moved away from the plain reading of scripture, away from the truth of God's word...I think it would do many of you well to go back to the 22nd chapter of 2 Kings... and heed the warning put forth for not obeying the word of God...
"Great is the Lords anger that burns against us, because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words ofthis book;
they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.
."...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12)
Dan 12:1
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.
But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.
64013984Also, I didn't just say any person could necessarily discern this. I stated that it was "Spirit-indwelled" Christians that would see this more clearly than non-Christians. What was written through the Spirit should be discoverable by the Spirit.
If it takes the Spirit to enable the church to identify the books as canonical then the books themselves do not possess a "special quality" that can be identified without the Spirit's aid, thus the books themselves are books like other books, it is the Spirit that gives life the books have nothing to offer as far as deciding canonicity is concerned.
"...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12)
So you don't believe the Creeds?The devil has been working overtime in the hearts and minds of people by deceiving them to think that they need to wait at the End of Age for a manifested earthly Christ to resurrect them.
That is why they reject the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD (first resurrection) being now after the thief (death) comes in a day and hour we know not to destroy (kill) our earthly house (body).
Saint Paul contended with false teachings of the early Christian fathers by saying the following:
If the dead rise not then Christ is not risen and if Christ is not risen then those who have already died have most certainly perished never to be raised. For if we only had hope in Christ without being immediately resurrected after we die then we are men most miserable and found to be false witnesses.
The second coming doctrine is related to the identity of Christ and if people are waiting for a manifested earthly messiah to resurrect them then they have the wrong identity.
Basically those who say that the resurrection of the dead did not commence when the Old Covenant Saints tombs were opened right up to the end of age for the remaining elect who hold it out in a lifeless destroyed planet, these same people deny the following:
1) Christ has already laid for all of us a MANIFEST TOKEN to eternal inheritance that is tied to the Living Seal God the Holy Spirit.
2) Christ completed the question of salvation and does not need to come back the second time to earth to put the cherry on top so to speak.
3) God the Holy Spirit completely finishes the question of salvation right up to our resurrection for he is the guarantor of the sealing of the faithful departed in Christ, where he resurrects us in the heavenly angelic spirit bodies (Romans 8:11).
4) God the Holy Spirit is never to be bypassed after we die we are not left naked without a resurrection body for the 2000+ years in the making second coming, as Saint Paul said he was given in earnest so that we are not left naked without a resurrection body.
5) God the Holy Spirit never leaves us and so departed Christians CAN NOT die and be left naked without a resurrection body for God is the God of the living.
So the true identity of the Christ will guide people to reject the manifested devil when he comes. For those faithful who die before he comes then they are lucky because they don't face the hour of temptation that comes upon all the inhabitants of that generation who are faced with the question of is this THE TRUE MESSIAH OR NOT.
We now now beyond a shadow of a doubt that any manifested earthly messiah will be the devil pretending to be Christ.
He has been coming friends, don't you see.
He came for Saint Stephen when the heavens opened and Saint Stephen was translated and he also came for then chief rabbi when he told him that he would see the son of man sitting on the right hand of God as God sitting in judgement of all nations.
However for the chief priest it didn't go down well because he was sent into darkness as a goat in the separation of the sheep and goats.
So, "In like manner' does not really mean in like manner?
No I do not believe we receive our bodies until the Second Advent.Do you believe in the resurrection of the dead that it is now after a faithful in Christ departs from the earthly life.
1 Corinthians 15:12-19
12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?