Nagasaki

[KelsayDL]

Anyone know what the "original church christians" did when the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was at hand?

They fled.

They did not stand and fight for their own home.

It was one of the major points of ostrization between christianity and judaism.

I've always been of the mind that a "just" war is fine.

Until reading a little bit of the history of the early "church". I mean before it was genitilized.

Now I don't know where I stand. Obviously if you don't fight in this world you will subject yourself to anything an oppressor wants.

But...

Do I want to take up arms against another man and more than likely kill someone who is not redeemed and send them to hell?

No. I don't.

I'm having very convoluted thoughts in regards of the issue of war and the proper response of the Christian.

I thank God that I never had to kill anybody when I was in the Infantry.

 

[Wolseley]

Force. You're still begging the same question. I'll wait for Wolsley's response if he cares to give one.

I will allow the sources I listed to speak for themselves.

You can obtain them through Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com, or your public library.

 

[Garyapostle]

Dear Brother in Christ,

In my born-again Christian pacifist understanding of God's inerrant Word: the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were grave sins against both humanity and God.

There has been no repentance by the United States for these war crimes, and in my understanding of the ethics of Jesus, there will be hell to pay for those who do not repent.

Nagasaki was primarily a Christian Japanese town. Many of those killed there were US prisoners of war, as well as many ministers. Many babies were also aborted by the bomb as well.

Repent America,

Garyapostle

 

[Wolseley]

Dear Brother in Christ,

In my born-again Christian pacifist understanding of God's inerrant Word: the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were grave sins against both humanity and God.

There has been no repentance by the United States for these war crimes, and in my understanding of the ethics of Jesus, there will be hell to pay for those who do not repent.

Nagasaki was primarily a Christian Japanese town. Many of those killed there were US prisoners of war, as well as many ministers. Many babies were also aborted by the bomb as well.

Repent America,

Garyapostle

No, Gary, I disagree. If the atomic bomb drops were grave sins, then the employment of any weapon in armed combat is a grave sin, whether it's a laser beam or a slingshot and a rock.

The dropping of the atomic bombs was an act of war, most assuredly, but they were not war crimes. The rape of Nanking was a war crime. Auschwitz was a war crime. Baba Yar was a war crime. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts of war, by a country in a declared state of war, against an aggressor who began that war.

Once again, I must quote Harry Truman: "I've had a lot of people tell me that we ought to apologize for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I always tell them, 'Well, maybe so, but you know, I've been very patiently waiting for somebody to apologize for Pearl Harbor'."

We didn't start that war, we ended it. And if they hadn't bombed Pearl to begin with, there never would have been any reason for us to bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

You are, as always, under absolutely no compulsion to agree.

 

[Garyapostle]

Dear Brother,

We will have to agree to disagree respectfully on this.
From my study of WW II and US history-both undergrad and graduate school and years of research on the topic, it is evident that neither bombing on Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was needed to end the war against the Japanese. They tried to surrender through private channels prior to the bombs, as long as they could keep their emperor. The US said no, unconditional only. Then Russia declared war against Japan, and the US hurriedly used the bomb to demonstrate its power to the Russians.
The Empire of Japan surrendered unconditionallly after the 2nd bomb.
They were allowed to keep their emperor.
SO what was the purpose of bombing those cities: (1) to see if the Bomb worked, and (2) to impress the Russians. There was no military necessity to use those weapons.

In my opinion and study of war crimes, I wrote a Master's thesis on the topic, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are war crimes. I am a Christian pacifist of course, but there are some things that even go beyond ordinary war: the Genocide of US Indians, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the My Lai massacre in Viet Nam.

Likewise you are under no obligation to agree with me, and I am sure you are a fine brother in the Lord.

Peace in Jesus,

Garyapostle

 

[Wolseley]

We will have to agree to disagree respectfully on this.
From my study of WW II and US history-both undergrad and graduate school and years of research on the topic, it is evident that neither bombing on Hiroshima nor Nagasaki was needed to end the war against the Japanese. They tried to surrender through private channels prior to the bombs, as long as they could keep their emperor. The US said no, unconditional only. Then Russia declared war against Japan, and the US hurriedly used the bomb to demonstrate its power to the Russians.
The Empire of Japan surrendered unconditionallly after the 2nd bomb.
They were allowed to keep their emperor.
SO what was the purpose of bombing those cities: (1) to see if the Bomb worked, and (2) to impress the Russians. There was no military necessity to use those weapons.

I've written a few papers on this topic myself. I don't subscribe to the idea that the bombings were undertaken to impress the Soviets, primarily because thanks to traitors and spies in the United States like Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, Morris Cohen, and David Greenglass, the Soviets knew everything we did about the bomb nearly as soon as we knew it.

As for dropping them to see if they worked, I believe that was already known when the first one was exploded in New Mexico: they did. As for military necessity,as I've mentioned, Hiroshima was the HQ of the Japanese 2nd Army, and while American victory was inevitable, the idea was that if the Japanese decided to give up, massive numbers of both American and Japanese lives would be saved.

Likewise you are under no obligation to agree with me, and I am sure you are a fine brother in the Lord.

Probably the only people who disagree more than theologians are historians, and I will agree to disagree with you on this topic, while agreeing that you also are undoubtably a fine Christian brother as well.

Blessings,
----Wols.

 

[Jet Black]

My personal feeling is that the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki saved the world. The Conclusion of WWII aside, I think that without the sheer horrific truth of what happens when those bombs are used the US and USSR would not have been so terrified of their use, and right now we would all be cooling off in a Nuclear winter. I have been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I have seen the museums and they are very sombre places. If I have one wish, it is that it never happens again.

 

[Lion of Narnia]

My personal feeling is that the bombings of hiroshima and nagasaki saved the world. The Conclusion of WWII aside, I think that without the sheer horrific truth of what happens when those bombs are used the US and USSR would not have been so terrified of their use, and right now we would all be cooling off in a Nuclear winter. I have been to both Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I have seen the museums and they are very sombre places. If I have one wish, it is that it never happens again.

You are aware, that Carl Sagan cooked the data to present his psuedo-science of nuclear winter? (I know, begging the question)

Still, the examples of those cities were so horrible it they have helped keep the general peace (sort of) for almost 60 years.

 

[Jet Black]

I use "nuclear winter" in the general sense, because it is a known phrase, and was slightly more poetic than saying "if the US and USSR had not been so terrified, then hundreds of millions of people would have been roasted alive and blasted across the radiation charred wasteland, and those survivors would probably wish they were dead"

 

[Betty Lesley]

Who said "there are no athiests in the foxhole"?

 

[Betty Lesley]

Does anyone know where the saying, "there are no atheists in the foxhole" came from and who first said it?

 

[Force]

It was originally said during WWI.

 

[TScott]

Does anyone know where the saying, "there are no atheists in the foxhole" came from and who first said it?

It was an army chaplain in WWII.

 

[BigEd]

One added fact... before the planed invasion the Japanesse were in the process of moblizing 40 million men, and women: arming them with bamboo pike to defend against the american invasion. If the invasion happened, millions of japanesse civilians would have died. Japan would have been destoyed as a nation. In many way, while horrible, the a-bombs were merciful compared to the carnage that would happened with an american invasion.

 

[stray bullet]

"It is far too early to say that the war is lost," - Japan's Minister of War, following the destruction of two of Japanese cities by atomic bombs.

Anyone that says Japan was ready to surrender is twisting the facts, they were ready to discuss peace since Dec 7, 1941. That's what they wanted. They had no intention of defeating America, only negotiating.
If Japan was willing to surrender unconditionally, they would have. The minute you are ready to surrender that way, you do. You don't keep fighting because there is no reason to. You don't discuss it privately, because there is no reason to.
Japan was not about to surrender to conventional war. It's totally dishonorable. This mentality explains not only the massive suicides of civilians witnessed following American invasions of smaller Japanese islands, but the many suicides within the military following surrender.
Japan believed they could keep fighting until America gave up. If they understood America's mentality, they wouldn't have attacked us to begin with.
The atomic bombs made them realize they had no chance of winning. They had no chance of dying honorably in battle either. One bomb didn't worked because it was actually ruled that it wasn't an atomic bomb. It took two to get the government to realize more were on the way. Only with TWO did it divide up the war council enough to consider surrender.

 

[Ryder]

"It is far too early to say that the war is lost," - Japan's Minister of War, following the destruction of two of Japanese cities by atomic bombs.

Anyone that says Japan was ready to surrender is twisting the facts, they were ready to discuss peace since Dec 7, 1941. That's what they wanted. They had no intention of defeating America, only negotiating.
If Japan was willing to surrender unconditionally, they would have. The minute you are ready to surrender that way, you do. You don't keep fighting because there is no reason to. You don't discuss it privately, because there is no reason to.
Japan was not about to surrender to conventional war. It's totally dishonorable. This mentality explains not only the massive suicides of civilians witnessed following American invasions of smaller Japanese islands, but the many suicides within the military following surrender.
Japan believed they could keep fighting until America gave up. If they understood America's mentality, they wouldn't have attacked us to begin with.
The atomic bombs made them realize they had no chance of winning. They had no chance of dying honorably in battle either. One bomb didn't worked because it was actually ruled that it wasn't an atomic bomb. It took two to get the government to realize more were on the way. Only with TWO did it divide up the war council enough to consider surrender.

One could be a fluke, perhaps a one-time mega weapon that exhausted the American science & industry, two means more comming... I agree that the second was very important.

 

[Garyapostle]

Dear Jeff and all,

The dropping of the bombs on both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were sins against almighty God, and those responsible will answer for it.

There was no military necessity to drop the bombs as Japan was already defeated. They offered to surrender through several channels several times, as long as they could keep their emperor. This was refused as the US would only take "unconditional surrender", which meant no emperor.

The US dropped the bombs and unconditional surrender came swiftly. Then the Japanese were allowed to keep their emperor. What?
The US cound have had surrender from the Japanese prior to the bomb dropping! The only issue was "unconditional surrender". Talk about Satanic pride!

Over 250,000 people died from the bombs, both directly and from the radiation and from continued deaths since then. I have been on websites which give the count of victims, which are still dying today!

Many of us agree that abortion is a sin. How many abortions did the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs cause? Many, I do not know the exact number.
Many babies were born without brains, many died of leukemia and and other cancers since then.
My dad said he went to Hiroshima as part of the army of occupation. He died of Leukemia years later.
Coincidence? I don't know for sure.

A friend of mine and her husband went to Hiroshima just after the war to study the effects of the bomb on the population. It was horrendous. Their studies, Barbara Reynolds told me, was used to make bigger and better bombs.

It is my opinion that the use of the Two bombs puts the US in the same moral league as the Nazis who perpetrated the Holocaust. If you disagree with me, that is finem but just think about what I wrote.
Are we Christians that hard-hearted and morally blind to accept the so-called "necessity" of nuclear weapons. In my opinion, a major heart change called repentance must take place.

Peace in Jesus,

Gary

 

[cenimo]

Way to go folks, jump all over the US for Hiroshima and Nagasaki without one mention of Pearl Harbor.

It's also quite amusing that all the people who jump on the we-shouldn't-have-nuked-them bandwagon conveniently forget all about Dresden. Read your history.

 

[Ryder]

They also forget that Japan was trying to develop 'dirty bombs' for use on the States. As well as forest-fire balloons that they already used (no joke! ) They actually launched balloons with fire-bombs attatched that floated on the trade winds to the US and started random forest-fires. They would have found a way to get a dirty bomb to the States if they'd been given time (see U-234). Satanic pride? the Japanese launched suicidal attacks not too different from the 9-11 mentality, they brutally tortured pows, and would fight to the death on every island they controled, why didn't they surrender there?

 

[KenH]

The dropping of the bombs on both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were sins against almighty God, and those responsible will answer for it.

I don't think you have the right to say that. You do not speak for God. Maybe you will have to answer for being so presumptuous.

Even after the two A-bombs were dropped, there was a group that didn't want to surrender and had planned a coup - www.danford.net/end.htm.

Dropping the A-bombs was no worse than any other action in war in order to win it.