Mystery Babylon

[RevelationTestament]

So you are under the view that Babylon is symbolizing Rome in 1 Peter 5, though there is very little evidence Peter was ever in Rome

1Pe 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.

There is no evidence he was ever in the city of Babylon either. YHWH had prophecied He would destroy the city, and by the time of Christ there was nothing left of the imperial city, but basically the outlying residences were used by local vagabonds etc. Further, Revelation calls Jerusalem Egypt - not Babylon. Christ had prophecied to Peter that "when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another will gird thee, and carry thee where thou wouldest not. This saith He signifying by what death he would glorify God." So I believe Peter was crucified. And this was something the Romans would have done. Not a bunch of vagabonds in old Babylon. So the Catholic tradition concerning Peter is probably correct. I believe Peter was writing in "code" in 1 Peter since he didn't want his letter to be intercepted and confiscated, but was writing from Rome, which the spirit had told him was Babylon.

Being a Preterist, I [and a lot of others] view both the Olivet Discourse and Revelation as the destruction of OC Jerusalem in ad 70, and so would the Jews of today if they believed in Jesus and the NT.

The dating of the vision and writing of Revelation is also an important aspect to this fulfillment.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bab.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..5.2.125.jfY2CunFA0I
babylon is jerusalem in bible AD70

I believe we can agree with the Preterist on the identification of Babylon with Jerusalem, however, we must categorically reject their claims that the prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70.
This chapter will demonstrate that there is no credible historical evidence to show that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 fulfilled Bible prophecy the way the Preterist claim.

Another key tenet of Preterism is dating the Book of Revelation to before AD 70. The strongest defense for the pre-AD 70 date in recent years has been by Kenneth Gentry, Jr. entitled Before Jerusalem Fell, Dating the Book of Revelation (1998, Revised Edition). This book is a reworking of his doctoral dissertation from Whitefield Theological Seminary in Lakeland, Florida.

The Preterist view has been defined as that view which “holds that the book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled in the first century with the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Thus, most of the aspects (such as the Beast, the Great Tribulation, the fall of Babylon, and Armageddon) have already occurred” (Balyeat 1991:226). Within the Preterist camp, there are two positions, the Full Preterist position and the Partial Preterist position. R. C. Sproul, a Partial Preterist, calls the Full Preterist position “radical preterism” because “all future prophecies in the NT have already been fulfilled” (1998:24). Chilton would call them “consistent preterists” (1987:264). Sproul would call himself a “moderate preterist” because “many future prophecies in the NT have already been fulfilled. Some crucial prophecies have not yet been fulfilled” (1998:24).

R. C. Sproul, Kenneth Gentry, Gary De Mar, and others champion the partial preterist position.
John Noe, Edward Stevens, David Chilton right before his death, espouses the Full Preterist view.
When I talked with Stevens and Noe at the ETS meeting, they said that Sproul and DeMar are heading toward the Full Preterist position, but Gentry is not.
The Full Preterist position is making inroads into the theological world and the Pre-Tribulation position is beginning to respond to the position.

I am not preterist, and I believe it is a bunch of made up hooey made up by a Catholic priest. While the Bible is subject to interpretation, I believe there are far too many points in the Bible which show the preterist interpretation to be completely incorrect. Not the least of which is the Savior's own words that they would not see Him again until they said blessed is he that cometh in the name of YHWH. So to assert that He had returned to Jerusalem when the vast majority had rejected Him is contrary to His own clear words.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am not preterist, and I believe it is a bunch of made up hooey made up by a Catholic priest. While the Bible is subject to interpretation, I believe there are far too many points in the Bible which show the preterist interpretation to be completely incorrect............

So what eschatological view do you hold?
Do you believe any of the Olivet Disourse or Revalation has been fulfilled?


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[RevelationTestament]

So what eschatological view do you hold?

I believe we are at the beginning of the seventh seal.

Do you believe any of the Olivet Disourse or Revalation has been fulfilled?

Yes. Quite a bit has.

Matt 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Ok. A lot of this is come to pass. We are in a largely wicked age.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

OK. Here we are....basically all the world has had a chance to hear of the gospel.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Ok. This is referring to Daniel 11 & 12 - not to the destruction of the temple which was essentially prophecied with the destruction of the city in Daniel 9. Once Daniel 9 is understood, the 70 weeks or 490 days are prophetically 490 years from the time of the commandment to Nehemiah to rebuild the city in 445 B.C. to the time of the Messiah 483 years later. And then the last week was the destruction of the city prophesied, which was the 7 yrs war during the midst of which the temple sacrifice ceased and the temple was destroyed.

What this means is that the 1260 days in Daniel 11 & 12 cannot refer to this temple destruction because 1260 yrs would take us far beyond the time of Christ's earthly ministry. So the day of trouble such as the world has never seen which Christ alluded as happening according to Daniel has not happened yet.

I believe Christ will not return to corruption ("no more to return to corruption"). So the world will be cleansed before He will return. This is also alluded to in Acts: "whom the heavens must receive until the restoration of all things." When man is done preparing His kingdom, I believe He will return to the earth & will be ready to hand it over to the Father. Man is hardly there now. This does not mean He may not appear in the clouds to His followers before that tho. Further, from Revelation it follows there must be another resurrection before the 1000 yrs is finished. I believe the 2 witnesses are the head of such a general resurrection, and that many will be resurrected with them, and the spirit of God testifies this to me expressly. In fact I believe there are several resurrections before the 1000 years are finished.

As for those prophecies finished in Revelation - they were to start "shortly" as I'm sure you know as a preterist. I believe the prophecy of the 7 headed beast has largely been fulfilled in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. I believe the woman riding on that beast was the corrupt church of Rome much as many early Protestants did. However, I believe the image of the beast which shall make it impossible to buy or sell without the mark of the beast has not come to pass yet. It is brought about by another beast which rises out of the earth. I believe this is coming about now. So in a nutshell that is my "eschatology."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

So what eschatological view do you hold?
​

I believe we are at the beginning of the seventh seal.

Do you believe any of the Olivet Disourse or Revalation has been fulfilled?

Yes. Quite a bit has.

As for those prophecies finished in Revelation - they were to start "shortly" as I'm sure you know as a preterist.
I believe the prophecy of the 7 headed beast has largely been fulfilled in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. I believe the woman riding on that beast was the corrupt church of Rome much as many early Protestants did.

However, I believe the image of the beast which shall make it impossible to buy or sell without the mark of the beast has not come to pass yet.

So you hold more to the historicist view, correct?

Welcome to the Web Site of the Historicism Research Foundation.

What is Historicism?

If you are like many Christians, you probably have never heard of this method of interpreting Biblical prophecy. Historicism is unlike Preterism, which teaches that most of prophecy has been fulfilled in the past. It also differs from Futurism, which teaches that prophecy will only be fulfilled at some future date.
In brief, Historicism teaches that biblical predictions are being fulfilled throughout history and continue to be fulfilled today. The Book of Revelation is a pre-written history of the Church from the time of its writing to the future Second Advent of Christ, which shall usher in the new heaven and new earth.

Preterism has little to say to us today since it inteprets predictions as mostly fulfilled. Futurism is beyond the Church, because most Futurists believe that a secret rapture will remove the Church from the world. However, if the Bible and Revelation speak to the Church in ALL ages (as Historicism teaches), it is of great importance that we listen.

Historicists agree on the following unique concepts:...................



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[RevelationTestament]

So you hold more to the historicist view, correct?

Welcome to the Web Site of the Historicism Research Foundation.

What is Historicism?

I would say basically correct. About 16 years ago I prayed to know who the false prophet of Revelation was. When I came home I found a booklet on my porch which presented an SDA version of the historicist view. I immediately felt much of it was correct, but began to pray about these things, and after 2 more years of intense study and prayer found out a lot more.


Here is my take on the Historicist view with some caveats:

Historicists agree on the following unique concepts:

The "Year-Day" principle - In prophetic language, a day of symbolic time represents a year of actual, historic time.

Basically, the Lord gives rules for interpreting his statutes. "A day for a year" was one in the Old Testament. However, in the NT we also have hours and "a day is as 1000 yrs with the Lord."

The "Time, Times and Half a time," "3 1/2 years," "1260 days", and "42 month" time period, which occurs seven times in Daniel and Revelation, is understood by Historicists to be fulfilled in history.

Agreed. It ended with Napolean giving the beast a deadly wound with the capture of the bishop of Rome in 1798.

All Historicists believe that the Papacy is that Anti-Christ, the Man of Sin of II Thessalonians 2, and a Beast of Revelation 13.

Not quite. An anti-Christ must deny the Son according to the NT. Muhammed did that. The Bishop of Rome tho, is the man of sin, yes, and medieval history is replete with the history of his sins.

Historicists generally agree Revelation 9 speaks of the Muslim scourge which afflicted Christendom.

Did not know this was a widely held view, but yes probably, but it has not happened yet since we are only at the very beginning of the 7th seal. The Islam religion is prophecied by Zech 5.

All Historicists agree that the Book of Revelation prophesies the history of the Church from the Apostolic Era to the future Second Advent of Jesus Christ.

Um, not quite. The 7 seals start with Adam. Each seal represents a thousand yr period and a covenant of the Lord, starting with the Adamic covenant, the Noahic covenant, the Abrahamic covenant, the Davidic covenant, the covenant of grace, the everlasting covenant, and lastly the Revelation covenant which is why the lamb has 7 eyes. So Revelation starts before the Apostolic Era and carries on to the end with the battle of Gog and magog and the prophecies of Ezekiel.

 

[interpreter]

The historicist view is the correct interpretation of the Revelation. The 7 last plagues are now being poured out (such as skin cancer, red tides, and global warming), so all previous prophesies have been fulfilled.

 

[CherubRam]

The historicist view is the correct interpretation of the Revelation. The 7 last plagues are now being poured out (such as skin cancer, red tides, and global warming), so all previous prophesies have been fulfilled.

The Two Witnesses have yet to come.

 

[dumpsterdiver45]

Revelation is highly metaphoric. In metaphor--especially metaphor in the Bible--literal elements are used as paints which represent a bigger picture. So when the talk about something obviously symbolic remains focused on literal explanations red flags should go up.

The thing most in the church refuse to see--the horrible thing in the human heart, our fallen nature--seems to fit the bill for Mystery Babylon and its corruptions and turns the symbolic from primarily a history lesson to something much closer to home and personal. God inspired a book about human affairs and His dealings with individuals, not history lessons. Just saying.

 

[interpreter]

The Two Witnesses have yet to come.

God's two witnesses are Christians and Jews. They prophesied in sackcloth during the 1260 years that the 7th head of the beast trampled Jerusalem. (Islamic conquerors are the seventh head of the beast to trample Jerusalem).

 

[interpreter]

It could be also New York, if it is not Rome.

Lol. New York does not sit on 7 hills or many waters. Moscow does, and Moscow was briefly aligned with Hitler the antichist as prophesied.

 

[CherubRam]

Quoting Mr. Larkin: “When Attalus, the Pontiff and King of Pergamos, died B.C. 133, he bequeathed the Headship of the Babylonian Priesthood to Rome. When the Etruscans came to Italy from Lydia (The region of Pergamos), they brought with them the Babylonian religion and rites. They set up a Pontiff who was head of the Priesthood. Later the Romans accepted this Pontiff as their civil ruler. Julius Caesar was made Pontiff of the Etruscan Order in B.C. 74. In B. C. 63, he was made Supreme Pontiff of the “Babylonian Order,” thus becoming heir to the rights an title of Attalus, Pontiff of Pergamos…Thus the first Roman Emperor become head of the “Babylonian Priesthood” and Rome the successor of Babylon (p. 151-152).”

Bump.

 

[interpreter]

Bump.

Rome does not sit on many waters.

 

[Der Alte]

Quoting Mr. Larkin: “When Attalus, the Pontiff and King of Pergamos, died B.C. 133, he bequeathed the Headship of the Babylonian Priesthood to Rome. When the Etruscans came to Italy from Lydia (The region of Pergamos), they brought with them the Babylonian religion and rites. They set up a Pontiff who was head of the Priesthood. Later the Romans accepted this Pontiff as their civil ruler. Julius Caesar was made Pontiff of the Etruscan Order in B.C. 74. In B. C. 63, he was made Supreme Pontiff of the “Babylonian Order,” thus becoming heir to the rights an title of Attalus, Pontiff of Pergamos…Thus the first Roman Emperor become head of the “Babylonian Priesthood” and Rome the successor of Babylon (p. 151-152).”

Bump.

I asked you before who is Mr. Larkin and why should be consider anything he said? In whatever writing of Larkin's you quoted from, which I am guessing you have never actually read, does Larkin provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for the assertions he allegedly made? Without such evidence this entire quote is meaningless, just some guy's opinion.

 

[CherubRam]

I asked you before who is Mr. Larkin and why should be consider anything he said? In whatever writing of Larkin's you quoted from, which I am guessing you have never actually read, does Larkin provide any credible, verifiable, historical evidence for the assertions he allegedly made? Without such evidence this entire quote is meaningless, just some guy's opinion.

I can only hope that the other people are smart enough to do a search.

 

[Der Alte]

I can only hope that the other people are smart enough to do a search.

IOW you cannot or refuse to provide proper citations for information you post. It is not the readers responsibility to chase down information that other people present. I can just imagine after submitting a written assignment when a college professor, asks for proper sources, someone saying "I hope you are smart enough to do a search." Or being a witness in a legal proceeding when a lawyer asks the witness to identify sources and give proper testimony, "I hope you're smart enough to do a search."

 

[2ducklow]

Quoting Mr. Larkin: “When Attalus, the Pontiff and King of Pergamos, died B.C. 133, he bequeathed the Headship of the Babylonian Priesthood to Rome. When the Etruscans came to Italy from Lydia (The region of Pergamos), they brought with them the Babylonian religion and rites. They set up a Pontiff who was head of the Priesthood. Later the Romans accepted this Pontiff as their civil ruler. Julius Caesar was made Pontiff of the Etruscan Order in B.C. 74. In B. C. 63, he was made Supreme Pontiff of the “Babylonian Order,” thus becoming heir to the rights an title of Attalus, Pontiff of Pergamos…Thus the first Roman Emperor become head of the “Babylonian Priesthood” and Rome the successor of Babylon (p. 151-152).”

This information doesn't automatically mean that the catholic church is mystery Babylon, there are other possible conclusions one could draw from it, such as mine, which is that this information just fits in with other information about the catholic church mixing pagan practices with christianity. Really whatever mystery Babylon is, it isn't clearly spelled out. For example no verse says the catholic church is mystery Babylon, and no verse says that occultic religion will be mystery Babylon (my opinion). And I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

[CherubRam]

This information doesn't automatically mean that the catholic church is mystery Babylon, there are other possible conclusions one could draw from it, such as mine, which is that this information just fits in with other information about the catholic church mixing pagan practices with christianity. Really whatever mystery Babylon is, it isn't clearly spelled out. For example no verse says the catholic church is mystery Babylon, and no verse says that occultic religion will be mystery Babylon (my opinion). And I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

"Pontifex Maximus" is a Pagan high priest title.
Pontifex Maximus coin: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...d_LK7I#hl=en&q=pontifex+maximus+coin&tbm=isch

Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Der Alte]

"Pontifex Maximus" is a Pagan high priest title.
Pontifex Maximus coin: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...d_LK7I#hl=en&q=pontifex+maximus+coin&tbm=isch

Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki is about as credible as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Every article has [edit] links anybody can post or change anything without review or control. I went to that Wiki page. This advisory is at the top of the [edit] page.

You are not logged in. Your IP address will be publicly visible if you make any edits. If you log in or create an account, your edits will be attributed to a user name, among other benefits.

Content that violates any copyrights will be deleted. Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. Work submitted to Wikipedia can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone—subject to certain terms and conditions.​

 

[2ducklow]

"Pontifex Maximus" is a Pagan high priest title.
Pontifex Maximus coin: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...d_LK7I#hl=en&q=pontifex+maximus+coin&tbm=isch

Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yes it is, it is also the title of the pope. . the days of the week and the days of the months are named after pagan gods.

 

[RevelationTestament]

Wiki is about as credible as the scribblings on a public facility wall. Every article has [edit] links anybody can post or change anything without review or control. I went to that Wiki page. This advisory is at the top of the [edit] page.

Don't need wikipedia to verify this. It is a well known historical fact that around the 4rth century the bishop of Rome took the title and office of the pontifex maximus after the Roman emperor, Gratian, disavowed the office the emperors had held from the time of Caesar. It is still on the Vatican bldgs. In the Greek it was translated to "greatest high priest...." It is also obvious that Rome was the 4rth beast of Daniel 7, and the desolator of Daniel 9 which destroyed the city as prophecied, and will receive the prophecied wrath of God to be poured out on the desolator.