My weakest trait

[Vedant]

i can't just accept things. i have such a hard time with it. i always have to rationalize things within my own mind. i have to make God fit into my version of the universe. this is my problem, and i know it.

i believe in evolution, i believe the world is 13.6 trillion years old, i think we came from monkeys, i think the Bible isn't the oldest written document, i don't think humans started living with Adam, i think some people are born gay, i don't think Noah could have taken every animal on the ark, i don't believe in things and this scares me. it's all right there in the Bible, and i'm ashamed, scared, and disheartened that i can't believe some things. can anyone guide me a little with this? i just don't know.

a lot of times i turn to 2 Timothy 3:16

"Beyond all question, the mystery of Godliness is great:

He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory."

that first part,

"...,the mystery of Godliness is great:..."

i guess is what we should worry about more than anything else.
but i still wonder.

 

[Arikay]

Just some corrections,

-the universe is around 14.5 billion years old, the earth is around 4.5 billion.
-We did not come from monkeys, but from a common ancestor of monkeys.


Well, you dont need to take everything literally to be christian or to accept the bible

 

[Michali]

Let me help you understand where to start.

You have heard of a man named Jesus who changed the world. After looking at ancient documentations about him, you have come to believe what he was preaching. You accept the fact that many people heard his messages, witnessed his miracles, and saw him resurrected. You read the Bible, close it, and straighten up to begin your spiritual journey. You are certain that the Truth is attainable, but you know it will take some seeking. You begin looking at scriptural interpretations and symbolism, and you begin studying the mysterious world in which you live.

You are sure of where you began, and you are sure of where you will go.

 

[Phred]

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.


[font=Veranda, sans-serif]Buddha [/font]

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

TROLL ALERT

 

[Michali]

Phred also makes a good point. If you choose Christianity, make a concerted effort to know why your a Christian. In that way, you will find what it means to spiritually grow.

 

[jay_swift]

You don't have to know all of the answers to be Christian. I certainly don't know anything about geology or archeology, my forte is computers and logic. So when I see people arguing about rock formations disproving the Bible, its hard sometimes to believe it.

There's still hope though, alot of scientific stuff has holes in it. Darwins theory has a "missing link" and the universe has a creation problem. Ask someone in this forum about these and they will argue with you until their fingers fall off. They have convincing arguments, but theres still missing things.

There is a HUGE amount of information the world, and not one person could know it all. The only way we understand what we do is because it is simple. That's why I like logic.

Take this statement for example: I am a male.
This statement has 2 possible answers. Either its true or false. There is a nearly endless amount of data supporting both sides.
Here's one supporting the truth: I can't give birth to a child. Here's one that doesn't support it: I have estrogen in my body.

Now, if I give enough of the untruth then people will start to think I'm a woman! That's what it feels like sometimes in these forums, and talking to evolutionists.

I hope this helps you in your views!

 

[Arikay]

A couple comments.

Very few people argue about rock formations disproving the bible. They argue that rock formations disprove a literal interpretation of the bible. It is pretty much impossible to disprove the bible, but we can disprove interpretations. This of course, has no effect on the claim that the bible is "gods words" since what is being disproven is fallible mans interpretation of "gods words" and not the bible itself.

Careful about promoting god in the gaps. I wont comment much about the "missing link" but I will mention that many missing links and holes have been filled in recent years and I expect that to continue. You are right, we do not know first cause of the universe, and god could possibly be it, but we still dont know.

You don't have to know all of the answers to be Christian. I certainly don't know anything about geology or archeology, my forte is computers and logic. So when I see people arguing about rock formations disproving the Bible, its hard sometimes to believe it.

There's still hope though, alot of scientific stuff has holes in it. Darwins theory has a "missing link" and the universe has a creation problem. Ask someone in this forum about these and they will argue with you until their fingers fall off. They have convincing arguments, but theres still missing things.

There is a HUGE amount of information the world, and not one person could know it all. The only way we understand what we do is because it is simple. That's why I like logic.

Take this statement for example: I am a male.
This statement has 2 possible answers. Either its true or false. There is a nearly endless amount of data supporting both sides.
Here's one supporting the truth: I can't give birth to a child. Here's one that doesn't support it: I have estrogen in my body.

Now, if I give enough of the untruth then people will start to think I'm a woman! That's what it feels like sometimes in these forums, and talking to evolutionists.

I hope this helps you in your views!

 

[jay_swift]

Careful about promoting god in the gaps.

It is the gaps that promote doubt in the theories against God.

 

[Arikay]

There are no theories against god. Contrary to what many anti christians and christian fundementalists (its ironic that the two groups agree ) Try to pretend, there are no theories against god.

There are only theories against what people thing god did. Theories against falible interpretations of gods words.

However, its important to note that the only thing that pushes god out of science is the god in the gaps mentality. In god in the gaps, you place god in the gaps of your knowledge and often say "god did it and not nature"

However, if god created everything then doesn't god control nature as well?
So, science can be viewed as the study of gods work. However god in the gaps often tries to promote a strugle between god and science, and tries to shove god places that we probably shouldn't be shoving him.

The theories only compete with god when you believe that science is atheistic, luckily that is not true.

It is the gaps that promote doubt in the theories against God.

 

[jay_swift]

There are no theories against god.

As is my understanding, if Darwinism is true then there is no Christian God. Common descent says everything started from one single organism. The Bible, however, says that God created all living creatures... then Adam named them. That theory is against God.

Science isn't athiestic, but many of the theories assume it is.

 

[Arikay]

Not true on both counts.

If the Theory of Evolution is true, then your View of the christian god needs to change, but it does not destroy the christian god.
The Theory of Evolution challenges your interpretation of the writting, the literal interpretation.
Tell me, do you believe that you have read the bible infallibly and that your interpretation that genesis is literal is the correct interpretation? Or could you be mistaken?

Can you also explain to me, why god could not have used evolution to create? Beyond that, what is the meaning of time to god? If time was meaningless and he can see everything from begining to end, would it not appear that he created all animals and that man named them, all in an instant? But to us it appears to have taken a long time. Would it then make sense for god to just give a quick explination that was true in a way, to a group of people who had very scientific knowledge?
Could the story of adam and eve have been written to have a deeper meaning when we were able to figure out that it was non literal? Or does it lose all meaning?


Very few theories are atheistic (if any). As I mentioned, science challenges your interpretation of the bible and your interpretation of god. Your interpretation of these things, and these things themselves, are seperate.

Just remember, anti christians would LOVE for you to be right, they would LOVE for science to be able to destroy the christian god, some even think it does. Luckily for christianity, it is not true.


Yes, lots of questions, but some things to think about.

As is my understanding, if Darwinism is true then there is no Christian God. Common descent says everything started from one single organism. The Bible, however, says that God created all living creatures... then Adam named them. That theory is against God.

Science isn't athiestic, but many of the theories assume it is.

 

[Michali]

Arikay,

I never thought of that. If God is outside of time, he could look at all of time in an instant. Certainly, if he created one thing, he didn't just create one thing, but a whole plethora of incidents in time.

 

[Arikay]

Its like looking at a printed picture. God says he created the pictures (all animals).

We are sitting on the ink jet, and we see each dot of the picture formed at a different time. Thus we see each animal being created one at a time, in a rather slow proccess. But for god, he sees the printer zip out the picture, (and well, he sees each dot being printed, but its hard to give a good example when dealing with omnipotence).

Now, if you were god, and you wanted to explain your position about the picture you made how would you do it? When writting the bible and explaining your part in the picture would you,

A) go into major detail about how the printer creates each dot one at a time over the course of awhile, and it eventually blends to a picture.

B) go into slight detail about how the printer creates the picture.

C) Say that you created the full finished picture, and then talk about what that means.


Ok, so its not the best example, but my guess would be, unless god was writting a technical printer manual, that he would skim over the details of how it was created and jump to the more important part, It was ALL created, by him, because...

If any of that makes sense.

Arikay,

I never thought of that. If God is outside of time, he could look at all of time in an instant. Certainly, if he created one thing, he didn't just create one thing, but a whole plethora of incidents in time.

 

[Vedant]

yeah...what exactly is one "day" of eternity?

 

[Vedant]

thanks for the comments, everyone...helping me to think.

 

[Michali]

yeah...what exactly is one "day" of eternity?

That is anyone's guess, but I like how you put it. Time is, or will be, an eternity. Obviously, the days in an eternal realm would be significantly longer to the one who divides time for an eternal abode. I suppose, when the resurrection comes, we will, afterwards, be in constant use of these age-days used by God.

 

[Gracchus]

Most of religion is window dressing. Dogma, ritual, and prayer are just so much stinking dung. What is needful is simple. If you aren't doing what is needful, you're just hinding in a dung-hill.

KJV Micah 6:8

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

It specifically doesn't say that we are required to believe nonsense.

 

[Michali]

KJV Micah 6:8
It specifically doesn't say that we are required to believe nonsense.

Perfect. And its Old Testament too.

 

[jay_swift]

I'm very impressed with your post in response to mine, Arikay! Very deep indeed.

If the Theory of Evolution is true, then your View of the christian god needs to change... The Theory of Evolution challenges your interpretation of the writting, the literal interpretation.

If I don't believe the literal interpretation, then I don't think I would be a real Christian. If I got to pick and chose which parts of the Bible were true and which were for the sake of the overall story, then what's stopping me from saying The Commandments were wrong? (There might be some theory that contradicts a passage) Plus if I buckle under every hard question about the Bible, do I really believe what it says?