My Thoughts

[Longing to kneel]

To the child of God, every tear is seen and gathered by the Lord, bearing a purpose both holy and tender in His sight. Yet to those who are not His own, tears are but fleeting shadows of pain, void of hope, unless lifted to Him in humble surrender.

 

[MehGuy]

What is the purpose for all these tears?

 

[Zaha Torte]

What is the purpose for all these tears?

We learn obedience through sufferng.

 

[MehGuy]

We learn obedience through sufferng.

Any other purposes?

Could we have still sufficiently learned obedience from far less extreme suffering means as we find in the world?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Any other purposes?

Could we have still learned obedience through less extreme suffering means as we find in the world?

Obedience is the first law of Heaven.

The mortal world offers the least amount of suffering God's children can suffer.

 

[MehGuy]

Obedience is the first law of Heaven.

The mortal world offers the least amount of suffering God's children can suffer.

Do some people need to learn it more than others? The range of misery humans experience varies to the extremes.

What exactly does the role of suffering play in the role of learning obedience?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Do some people need to learn it more than others?

Yep.

The range of misery humans experience varies to the extremes.

As well as their individual ability to endure it. We are all different.

What exactly does the role of suffering play in the role of learning obedience?

Suffering has many roles.

The first and most relevant is we learn that disobedience always leads to suffering.

 

[MehGuy]

Yep.

As well as their individual ability to endure it. We are all different.

Suffering has many roles.

The first and most relevant is we learn that disobedience always leads to suffering.

I do not quite get why some have to suffer so much to learn obedience. Are you saying that slaves, and other really downtrodden people have extra rebellious souls that needs to be corrected to a more severe extent?

Or are you saying for some reason God uses extreme suffering for no other reason but that they can endure pain more than others? Which honestly sounds pointless.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I do not quite get why some have to suffer so much to learn obedience.

We all have free will. There will always be those more resistant to obey than others. Some will never submit to God and be healed.

It is always our choice. Within our control.

Are you saying that slaves, and other really downtrodden people have rebellious souls that needs to be corrected to a more severe extent?

I suppose that would depend on what you mean by "suffering".

We all know that Joseph was sold into slavery - but the experiences that he had as both a slave and a prisoner caused him to thrive and eventually save his entire family.

As an example - I am not condoning slavery - but there are many people today who would not be where they are, have what they have, be who they are - if their ancestors had not either been slaves or had owned slaves in the past.

All of us need to be grateful for what we have and learn to do our best with what we have been given.

Or are you saying for some reason God uses extreme suffering for no other reason but that they can endure pain more than others?

No. All of our sufferings have a purpose and part of this life is to find out what that purpose is and fulfill it, so we don't suffer in vain.

Which honestly sounds pointless.

I agree. Mortal life is a test - but one of integrity - not of pain. Suffering and pain are byproducts of decisions made by us and others.

 

[MehGuy]

We all have free will. There will always be those more resistant to obey than others. Some will never submit to God and be healed.

So if you find yourself in a bad situation you may be in that (but not always ) because you have a rebellious nature that you need to work on?

It is always our choice. Within our control.

I suppose that would depend on what you mean by "suffering".

We all know that Joseph was sold into slavery - but the experiences that he had as both a slave and a prisoner caused him to thrive and eventually save his entire family.

As an example - I am not condoning slavery - but there are many people today who would not be where they are, have what they have, be who they are - if their ancestors had not either been slaves or had owned slaves in the past.

All of us need to be grateful for what we have and learn to do our best with what we have been given.

No. All of our sufferings have a purpose and part of this life is to find out what that purpose is and fulfill it, so we don't suffer in vain.

I agree. Mortal life is a test - but one of integrity - not of pain. Suffering and pain are byproducts of decisions made by us and others.

What are the other reasons God allows extreme suffering in life? Surely there are people who do suffer a lot yet have a genuine submission to Christianity. There must be other primary reasons God See's it fit for some people to live in utter misery. Sometimes for their whole lives.

Does the pain from stepping on a LEGO block one's kids left out in the hallway have meaning too?

 

[MehGuy]

There has to be a better purpose than for generations to live lives as slaves just because one day their descendants would be free and living in a developed country.

You can see why people would view these reasons even less compelling justifications for why God allows some people to live such extremely cruel lives.

 

[Robban]

So if you find yourself in a bad situation you may be in that (but not always ) because you have a rebellious nature that you need to work on?



What are the other reasons God allows extreme suffering in life? Surely there are people who do suffer a lot yet have a genuine submission to Christianity. There must be other primary reasons God See's it fit for some people to live in utter misery. Sometimes for their whole lives.

Does the pain from stepping on a LEGO block one's kids left out in the hallway have meaning too?

Something I heard a long time ago, "Pain is real, suffering is optional."

Make of it what you will.

 

[MehGuy]

Something I heard a long time ago, "Pain is real, suffering is optional."

Make of it what you will.

What do you make of it?

 

[Zaha Torte]

So if you find yourself in a bad situation you may be in that (but not always ) because you have a rebellious nature that you need to work on?

To be perfectly clear - as mortals in a fallen world - we are all of us in a "bad situation" and it was caused by our "rebellious nature".

However - rather than just destroy us outright and banish us to outer darkness - which would be Just - God has given us Time in this imperfect world to work out our salvation from sin and death by giving us the opportunity to come unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is only through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that we obtain any good thing and overcome our weaknesses and resist temptation.

Most of the time our "sufferng" is simply the discomfort of us changing.

What are the other reasons God allows extreme suffering in life?

God Himself came down into our world and suffered all things from the beginning.

He took upon Himself the penalties of our sins - all the pains of Hell for every creature that sins.

So - in that case - He suffered in order to allow us the opportunity to choose to avoid Hell and be saved.

Suffering - in and of itself - is not a "bad" thing - it can lead to many good things - it all depends on our perspective.

Surely there are people who do suffer a lot yet have a genuine submission to Christianity.

Of course - yet having a knowledge of the truth - and applying it - helps people better endure suffering.

Just like how God allows the sun to rise on both the wicked and the righteous - so too does He allow us all to suffer.

Yet - as long as you keep Him close - you need not suffer alone.

And the only thing worse than suffering is to suffer alone.

His burdens are light because He has already suffered for us.

There must be other primary reasons God See's it fit for some people to live in utter misery. Sometimes for their whole lives.

We are all "rough stones rolling" - and our experiences in this life are smoothing out our edges - to make us smooth instruments in God's hands.

Does the pain from stepping on a LEGO block one's kids left out in the hallway have meaning too?

Sure - it better motivates the parent to teach their children how to be more responsible with what they have been given.

 

[Robban]

What do you make of it?

Sometimes I get it but often there comes along thoughts that blow it out of the water.

To suffer can take different forms but for the most part are connected with "self".

 

[partinobodycular]

Something I heard a long time ago, "Pain is real, suffering is optional."

Make of it what you will.

What do you make of it?

Well this song is certainly going to date me a bit. But it's one that I took to heart when I was younger. Funny how suffering really hasn't seemed to be all that arduous since then.

 

[Robban]

Add on to post #15,

To take a high water mark, David, King David prayed that his suffering be taken from him,

it was causing interference with his Torah study,

and who can know if he will die today or tomorrow.

Though it is said "Only through suffering can one enter the World to come"

So, the question, what is meant by "suffering"?

Yet another high water mark, Joseph, imprisoned under Pharoah, check this out.

Genesis 40:6-7.

What kind of question was that?

 

[MehGuy]

Sure - it better motivates the parent to teach their children how to be more responsible with what they have been given.

Just to clarify. All pain we experience in life has meaning behind it, no matter how small and seemingly trivial?

 

[Zaha Torte]

Just to clarify. All pain we experience in life has meaning behind it, no matter how small and seemingly trivial?

I was talking about suffering - not just pain - but as a person who suffers from constant pain, I can attest that the Lord is helping me learn patience and "long-suffering" - a term often used in the scriptures.

 

[partinobodycular]

We learn obedience through sufferng.

I'm sorry, but if you believe that suffering is about teaching us obedience then you believe in a completely different God than I do. Suffering is about teaching us patience, and compassion, and courage. It's 1st Corinthians 13 for the soul. Because it's only through suffering that we truly gain compassion for those with whom we have little else in common... except the ubiquitousness of suffering. It's not about teaching us obedience toward God. It's about teaching us admiration... not toward God, but toward each other... but then again, those are the same thing.