My thoughts

[jaygatz]

Hello, my name is not important, and when I was just 10 years old I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior. At that point in time I was young and really didn’t know better. I was basically spoon fed religion from a pretty young age. Went to church every Sunday, went to Sunday School and all that wonderful stuff. Right up til the time I was a about 15 or 16 I started thinking. Is there a God? I am now 31 years of age and the answer to my question has never been answered. Personally I do not believe there is a god. I have never seen actual proof that he exists.
I have watched many documentaries, read books including the Bible on this subject, and still I am no closer to my answer. I have no sworn off religion all together, but I just am not buying the whole story. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. I want there to be a God. I want to know that this life actually means something and that there is something to look forward to after this life. However the truth of the matter is there may not be a god. I know I’m going to get a lot of people saying YES THERE IS, and give me all this so called proof that is in the Bible, and try and give me some lame example of God’s existence. Now don’t get me wrong here. I think religion is a great thing. It gives people comfort. It sets people at ease. Gives them hope, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. As a matter of fact I encourage that. The problem I have is there are so many inconsistencies, and contradictions that it makes it so hard for myself to believe.
The best place for me to start is at the very very beginning I guess. Science VS religion. Science says everything began with the Big Bang and everything started from nothing. Well religion, well Christianity says the same sort of thing, with its own little twist. God was there in the beginning and he created it all. Uhhhhhh…..Ok, well if there was nothing like it says in the Bible, how was god there? Recently Mr Steven Hawking pretty much the smartest man on the planet says this is impossible. At the point of the big bang there was nothing at all, not even time existed, and nothing could exist before time. Which makes sense in a Steven Hawking kind of way. However this also makes sense to me. If there was nothing in the beginning then nothing existed, not even god. Now that’s not to say that at the point of the big bang that all matter was created, and it is quite possible that GOD may have been the very first being ever created. Possible yes but I am still not convinced there is a god. I do firmly believe that there is an after life. A lot of you are probably saying he doesn’t believe in god but he believes in and after life? Well I look at it this way. According to science we all possess energy within our body’s, and according to science energy has a half life. Meaning it never really dissipates. My second thought on this is our memories. We all have them, and I think we bring them into the after life with us. If we did not retain any memories after death then the life we live would not only be pointless but we would not be self aware. We would have no conscious knowledge of ever being alive. In other words we would have never even known we existed.
Basic science has already proved the Bible and Christianity wrong. How, you might ask? The speed of light. We are all taught that light travels at a fixed rate of speed. That it takes 8 Minutes for the suns light to travel to the earth. All those beautiful star we see at night, most of them are thousands of thousands of light years away. Meaning its taken that light thousands and thousands of years if not longer to reach our planet. However according to the bible and Christians the earth is only something like 6000 years old. That makes no sense at all. Not one bit. I mean something simple like that doesn’t exactly prove that there is no god, but it does contradict what the bible says and what Christianity says.


The bible is a good book, lots of interesting STORIES in it. Yes I say stories because that is what it is. It is a book written BY MAN, not by god, but my men. That say they were instructed by god and that it is the word of god. Ummmm, no. Again it was written by humans, a long time ago. You know what we think of people today that say they see god, or are in communication with god….. We call them Crazy, and most times put them on medication and lock them away from society, in mental institutes. However back in the day they were known as profits. Interesting Huh?
In the grand scheme of things people are going to believe what they want to believe. That’s perfectly fine. Again I don’t see anything wrong with believing in god. It is a good thing, religion is a somewhat good thing. I say somewhat because there are many different religions and, religion it self have been responsible for more deaths and sacrifices on this planet than all the wars ever fought. For a person to believe in god, and read the bible and follow its message is not a bad thing. For the most part it keeps the human race under control, keeps them in fear that if they don’t do what the bible says that they are going to hell. So again I say its not a bad thing that Christianity exists. Most of the religions that I have heard about all pretty much say the same thing with there own little twist of course. The basic message is be good or be punished. Interesting huh? There’s another interesting story along those lines too. It’s a story of a fat guy that is watching us 24/7 and has a list of all the good little boys and girls and if your good you are rewarded, if you are bad you are not rewarded. Sounds kind of familure doesn’t it? It’s a great story and for the most part, not always, but it seems to keep children from being really bad especially during the month of December, but we all grew up and realized that Santa isn’t real. Just like God. Christianity is just the adult version of Santa Clause. Yes I know the whole Idea of Santa was invented or thought up long after the story of Jesus, I’m just saying there rather similar.
There is another thing that bothers me quite a bit, and that is all these Christians that believe in God so blindly and so strongly, they actually believe that god/Jesus controls there life. I hear it all the time. God gave me the strength to get off drugs. God gave me the power to overcome my fears. God helped me get that job I have wanted. GOD GOD GOD. I have news for you people. God did not do a damn thing. YOU DID!!!!!!!! You decided to get off drugs. You were the one that decided to get off you lazy butt and get that job, and You alone conquered your fears. Another thing people say a lot when things go good or bad. It was gods will. REALLY? So it was gods will, to see that bus full of handicap children fly off the road and crash? It was gods will to give the nicest person you know cancer. It’s gods will that some child is being raped and molested right now in some part of the world? Does that really what helps you sleep at night? Really? Come on people, get with the program. There is no God, if there was he would not allow such horrible things to happen. Especially one that says he loves everyone. Oh right, my mistake all those bad things that happen in the world are because of Satan. That’s right because when things go so wrong with our lives we don’t want to ever blame our selfs or the sick bastard that rapes children, we would rather blame the devil. Which brings me to my second point on the subject of god’s will and divine plan. If there was this almighty plan, and everything has already been pre determined how as a person do we even have free will. I mean if god knows what we are going to and its already been written. Then we don’t really have a choice. God made the choice for us. Nope… There was and is no device plan nothing is pre determined, and we all have free will. We all make our own choices in life, NOT GOD!
The thing really that gets me is that God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing all loving. If he knew that we were all sinners and and such bad people, that we needed saving. Why would he even bother creating us at all. I mean seriously think about the logic there. What is this some kind of sick joke? God created us and knew all along that we are sinners. He gave us free will, he gave us self awareness and the ability to do bad things. Again I ask, WHY. Why would someone that says they love us do something so sinister. This to me does not sound like a being that loves us. Its rather sloppy work in my opinion. I mean for a all powerful all loving and all knowing GOD. I know exactly what you are thinking though. That’s the meaning of life. That’s what god wanted right. For all of us to be sinners. Repent our sins, accept god, do good on this planet and then we are rewarded by going to heaven and living for ever in paradise right? Well if he loved us so much why not cut out the middle man all together and allow us to have always lived happily, and with god. Why bother with the pain and suffering? It just does not make any sense to do that to someone you love.
To be completely honest with you though, I really want to believe there is a god. It would be nice to know that this isn’t all there is. To all those that believe, I envy you. It must be an amazing feeling to think that you are going to hevan. I just hope your right.
[FONT=&quot]I could go on and on and on about this but I think I have made my point. [/FONT]

 

[joey_downunder]

Hi Jaygatz, the first half isn't my specialty but there are a lot of christian apologists out there who would answer your question very well.
Is God a Delusion? The Debate That Never Was: William Lane Craig vs Richard Dawkins? - YouTube

A really academic christian apologetics website that answers ALL those questions of yours and proves christians do think... we think a lot. Apologetics 315

 

[hedrick]

Plenty of Christians accept scientific explanations. Note that what you say about the Big Bang isn't entirely accurate. The big bang says that our space-time doesn't extend before the Big Bang. However it says nothing about what might be beyond our space-time. My impression is that scientists expect to find some "larger" system out of which big bangs come.

If God is the creator, he can't live in our space-time, since there would be no place for him before the big bang. However if there's likely a larger space, he could be there. But really, even before the big bang idea, most Christians didn't think God lived in our normal universe. Few people expected that if our space ships travelled far enough they'd eventually find God. If God created the universe, he can't be within it. What the big bang does is make us realize that this applies to time as well as space. We always knew that God didn't live within normal space. It's recently become clear that he isn't within our normal time either.

This doesn't prove that God exists, but the big bang isn't an objection.

On God's will: Christianity only makes sense if you believe that God allows the universe to function at least in large part on its own. He cares what happens to us, and he has ways of making things come out in the end the way he wants. But he doesn't intervene from moment to moment. After all, his way of dealing with evil was to join us and suffer the consequences himself. That's not an approach most of us would have expected. The naive view of God would be that whenever someone is about to do something wrong he's send a thunderbolt.

Why might he do this? Unfortunately we don't know for sure. However I would argue that if he is doing miracles all over the place, we would find it impossible to learn to be responsible, because actions wouldn't have definite consequences. If you think of the world as more of a training-ground than our ultimate home, it makes more sense for it to have real challenges and real consequences for actions. The problem of evil is really a challenge to us. If we're upset by people suffering, it's our job to deal with it. With the great commission, Jesus appointed us to carry out his work, though of course he still cares and is involved with us.

A few Christians think even this isn't a good enough answer. They believe that the Bible gives us a picture of God who is far above us, but who is still limited. Genesis 1 can be interpreted as saying that God created the world within an existing system which he may not have created. I haven't gotten to the point of accepting this approach myself, and of course most Christians think it's unbiblical. But one way or the other, by his own choice or of necessity, it appears that God operates most of the time by persuasion, although most Christians think he has an overall plan which comes out right in the end. And of course in this plan he provides for our salvation. He isn't so hands-off that he just leaves us on our own. Thus he certainly does intervene at times. Consider the resurrection or Paul's conversion. But that's fairly rare.

I think on the human level this is something we accept. If we could design a world of our children where they never suffered, would we? Have you ever seen "The Truman Show." When he finds out what is going on, Truman correctly resents it. Similarly, most people are willing to accept the Prime Directive in Star Trek, even though by letting pre-warp cultures develop on their own, a lot more suffering may occur. Most people seem to think that it's a mistake for us to forced undeveloped cultures into Western civilization, even though that would result in significantly less suffering.

 

[razzelflabben]

Hello, my name is not important, and when I was just 10 years old I accepted Jesus as my lord and savior. At that point in time I was young and really didn’t know better. I was basically spoon fed religion from a pretty young age. Went to church every Sunday, went to Sunday School and all that wonderful stuff. Right up til the time I was a about 15 or 16 I started thinking. Is there a God? I am now 31 years of age and the answer to my question has never been answered. Personally I do not believe there is a god. I have never seen actual proof that he exists.
I have watched many documentaries, read books including the Bible on this subject, and still I am no closer to my answer. I have no sworn off religion all together, but I just am not buying the whole story. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong. I want there to be a God. I want to know that this life actually means something and that there is something to look forward to after this life. However the truth of the matter is there may not be a god. I know I’m going to get a lot of people saying YES THERE IS, and give me all this so called proof that is in the Bible, and try and give me some lame example of God’s existence. Now don’t get me wrong here. I think religion is a great thing. It gives people comfort. It sets people at ease. Gives them hope, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. As a matter of fact I encourage that. The problem I have is there are so many inconsistencies, and contradictions that it makes it so hard for myself to believe.

okay, this is one issue...what inconsistencies and contradictions do you see? I hear people talk about this, but as of so far, I haven't seen them. So what are you referring to here, so we can talk?

The best place for me to start is at the very very beginning I guess. Science VS religion. Science says everything began with the Big Bang and everything started from nothing. Well religion, well Christianity says the same sort of thing, with its own little twist. God was there in the beginning and he created it all. Uhhhhhh…..Ok, well if there was nothing like it says in the Bible, how was god there?

I'm not following this question please elaborate, thanks...

Recently Mr Steven Hawking pretty much the smartest man on the planet says this is impossible. At the point of the big bang there was nothing at all, not even time existed, and nothing could exist before time.

the bible doesn't have time existing until after the sun, moon, stars, etc. are created, so I don't know what contradiction you see...

Which makes sense in a Steven Hawking kind of way. However this also makes sense to me. If there was nothing in the beginning then nothing existed, not even god. Now that’s not to say that at the point of the big bang that all matter was created, and it is quite possible that GOD may have been the very first being ever created.

we can take this to infinity, because for the big bang to occur, something had to be there to cause it...etc. But, just like the theory of evolution does not deal with anything previous of the single celled population, the bible doesn't address anything previously of God. If we can accept that from the theory of evolution (to have a stopping point in our understanding) why can't we accept the same from God, why can't we accept that that is as far as our minds can contain, and be equally satisfied with that?

Possible yes but I am still not convinced there is a god. I do firmly believe that there is an after life. A lot of you are probably saying he doesn’t believe in god but he believes in and after life? Well I look at it this way. According to science we all possess energy within our body’s, and according to science energy has a half life. Meaning it never really dissipates. My second thought on this is our memories. We all have them, and I think we bring them into the after life with us. If we did not retain any memories after death then the life we live would not only be pointless but we would not be self aware. We would have no conscious knowledge of ever being alive. In other words we would have never even known we existed.

I would recommend that you spend some time in review of the evidence, a great summary of the evidence (mostly historic) if found in the books "The Case for Christ" and "The Case for the REal Jesus" ...personally I like the second one better, but they are both good and offer some really interesting historic evidence.

Basic science has already proved the Bible and Christianity wrong.

How so?

How, you might ask? The speed of light. We are all taught that light travels at a fixed rate of speed. That it takes 8 Minutes for the suns light to travel to the earth. All those beautiful star we see at night, most of them are thousands of thousands of light years away. Meaning its taken that light thousands and thousands of years if not longer to reach our planet. However according to the bible and Christians the earth is only something like 6000 years old.

not all Christians believe the earth to be young...I think the book is The Genesis Record, I'll check with my husband on the title if you are interested. The book talks about all the possibles of what the bible tells us about creation...for example, what are the possibles for the length of day in GEn. it then looks at which is logically the best answer. When it comes to a young earth, there are a lot of christians that dont' think the earth is all that young, and many fall somewhere between the 6000 year earth and the "old" science version and it is all based on scripture.

That makes no sense at all. Not one bit. I mean something simple like that doesn’t exactly prove that there is no god, but it does contradict what the bible says and what Christianity says.

only certain understandings of scripture. When we really get into studying scripture we see that there are some things that are traditionally taught that are not necessarily that cut and dry...in fact, most churches push a certain amount of tradition in with their teachings, which are not always accurate, which is why it is a great idea to study scripture for yourself rather than to rely on someone to do it for you.

The bible is a good book, lots of interesting STORIES in it. Yes I say stories because that is what it is. It is a book written BY MAN, not by god, but my men.

we will disagree on this.

That say they were instructed by god and that it is the word of god. Ummmm, no. Again it was written by humans, a long time ago. You know what we think of people today that say they see god, or are in communication with god….. We call them Crazy, and most times put them on medication and lock them away from society, in mental institutes. However back in the day they were known as profits. Interesting Huh?

"The Case for the Real Jesus" addresses this in some depth, and shows how much it would take for the bible to be written by mere men...it's quite interesting, I really recommend the read to you.

In the grand scheme of things people are going to believe what they want to believe. That’s perfectly fine. Again I don’t see anything wrong with believing in god. It is a good thing, religion is a somewhat good thing. I say somewhat because there are many different religions and, religion it self have been responsible for more deaths and sacrifices on this planet than all the wars ever fought.

religion is a nasty thing to be sure...but relationship isn't evil, in fact, relationship is about Love.

For a person to believe in god, and read the bible and follow its message is not a bad thing. For the most part it keeps the human race under control, keeps them in fear that if they don’t do what the bible says that they are going to hell.

wow, this isn't what scripture says at all...where do you get this idea?

So again I say its not a bad thing that Christianity exists. Most of the religions that I have heard about all pretty much say the same thing with there own little twist of course. The basic message is be good or be punished. Interesting huh?

that is what makes them religions, belief in the living God is about relationship which is very different.

There’s another interesting story along those lines too. It’s a story of a fat guy that is watching us 24/7 and has a list of all the good little boys and girls and if your good you are rewarded, if you are bad you are not rewarded. Sounds kind of familure doesn’t it? It’s a great story and for the most part, not always, but it seems to keep children from being really bad especially during the month of December, but we all grew up and realized that Santa isn’t real. Just like God. Christianity is just the adult version of Santa Clause. Yes I know the whole Idea of Santa was invented or thought up long after the story of Jesus, I’m just saying there rather similar.

yet we aren't told that we can have a relationship with Santa...while scripture says we can have a relationship with God...interesting difference, don't you think?

There is another thing that bothers me quite a bit, and that is all these Christians that believe in God so blindly and so strongly, they actually believe that god/Jesus controls there life. I hear it all the time. God gave me the strength to get off drugs. God gave me the power to overcome my fears. God helped me get that job I have wanted. GOD GOD GOD. I have news for you people. God did not do a damn thing. YOU DID!!!!!!!! You decided to get off drugs. You were the one that decided to get off you lazy butt and get that job, and You alone conquered your fears. Another thing people say a lot when things go good or bad. It was gods will. REALLY? So it was gods will, to see that bus full of handicap children fly off the road and crash? It was gods will to give the nicest person you know cancer. It’s gods will that some child is being raped and molested right now in some part of the world? Does that really what helps you sleep at night? Really? Come on people, get with the program.

this is a whole different discussion, so will see if you and I engage in discussion before I even address this, especially since some of the basics that tell us what is intended here, don't seem to be part of your biblical understanding of God.

There is no God, if there was he would not allow such horrible things to happen. Especially one that says he loves everyone. Oh right, my mistake all those bad things that happen in the world are because of Satan. That’s right because when things go so wrong with our lives we don’t want to ever blame our selfs or the sick bastard that rapes children, we would rather blame the devil.

no, because of sin, but again, this requires a basic understanding of scripture, which you are not demonstrating in this post and I'm afraid this would take us too far off topic at this point.

Which brings me to my second point on the subject of god’s will and divine plan. If there was this almighty plan, and everything has already been pre determined how as a person do we even have free will.

now you are getting into calvinistic ideas, which is also best left for after some basics are covered, we can get to this eventually, if your game for discussion.

I mean if god knows what we are going to and its already been written. Then we don’t really have a choice. God made the choice for us. Nope… There was and is no device plan nothing is pre determined, and we all have free will. We all make our own choices in life, NOT GOD!

actually, the bible teaches that we decide...but that is best left for a bit later.

The thing really that gets me is that God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing all loving. If he knew that we were all sinners and and such bad people, that we needed saving. Why would he even bother creating us at all. I mean seriously think about the logic there. What is this some kind of sick joke?

not so much a problem, think about it this way....I know that when I have kids, they will disobey me, but there is a greater, a greater reward, that makes me want to have kids. Knowing they will disobey, doesn't stop me from wanting kids...similarly, God didn't allow our disobedience to stop Him from wanting us.

God created us and knew all along that we are sinners. He gave us free will, he gave us self awareness and the ability to do bad things. Again I ask, WHY. Why would someone that says they love us do something so sinister.

something sinister like what?

This to me does not sound like a being that loves us. Its rather sloppy work in my opinion.

so we can't Love our kids because we have them even when we know they will disobey? How is that logical?

I mean for a all powerful all loving and all knowing GOD. I know exactly what you are thinking though. That’s the meaning of life. That’s what god wanted right. For all of us to be sinners. Repent our sins, accept god, do good on this planet and then we are rewarded by going to heaven and living for ever in paradise right? Well if he loved us so much why not cut out the middle man all together and allow us to have always lived happily, and with god. Why bother with the pain and suffering? It just does not make any sense to do that to someone you love.

now you are once again, talking like the traditions of the church, not the truth as defined in scripture. Death (separation from God, including but not limited to hell) is the consequence of sin, not the punishment...this is a very important understanding that is a basic you need to understand.

To be completely honest with you though, I really want to believe there is a god. It would be nice to know that this isn’t all there is. To all those that believe, I envy you. It must be an amazing feeling to think that you are going to hevan. I just hope your right.
[FONT=&quot]I could go on and on and on about this but I think I have made my point. [/FONT]

honestly, I don't care if I go to heaven or hell, being in fellowship with the living God is enough....but that is another story...

 

[bling]

The best place for me to start is at the very very beginning I guess. Science VS religion. Science says everything began with the Big Bang and everything started from nothing. Well religion, well Christianity says the same sort of thing, with its own little twist. God was there in the beginning and he created it all. Uhhhhhh…..Ok, well if there was nothing like it says in the Bible, how was god there? Recently Mr Steven Hawking pretty much the smartest man on the planet says this is impossible. At the point of the big bang there was nothing at all, not even time existed, and nothing could exist before time. Which makes sense in a Steven Hawking kind of way. However this also makes sense to me. If there was nothing in the beginning then nothing existed, not even god. Now that’s not to say that at the point of the big bang that all matter was created, and it is quite possible that GOD may have been the very first being ever created. Possible yes but I am still not convinced there is a god. I do firmly believe that there is an after life. A lot of you are probably saying he doesn’t believe in god but he believes in and after life? Well I look at it this way. According to science we all possess energy within our body’s, and according to science energy has a half life. Meaning it never really dissipates. My second thought on this is our memories. We all have them, and I think we bring them into the after life with us. If we did not retain any memories after death then the life we live would not only be pointless but we would not be self aware. We would have no conscious knowledge of ever being alive. In other words we would have never even known we existed.

I am a Chemist and can address this to begin with:

As far as evidence of God’s existence you can look at a tree and use it as evidence or dismiss it as evidence, but science cannot explain its existence.

As far as the 6 day creation, Geneses 1 is very poetic and not to be taken literally.

As far as Steven Hawking, he has made lots of money writing books and lecturing, is very smart (but not the smartest), and has made lots of scientific mistakes. To get around the problem of “something coming from nothing” (think about that since no one sees that as possible), Steve Hawking says, nothing is really something. So that means something has always existed, but that runs into other issues Steven Hawking does not address.

The idea of “intelligence” (even the intelligence you have) coming from non-intelligence (random actions) is totally not logical or explainable even with infinity. Intelligence is really needed and if you can suggest “matter/energy” has always been around because they are needed, the leap to believing intelligence always existing (God) is not that great (and is even more logical).


Philosopher Antony Flew, former influential atheist who became a theist before his death, wrote about his change of mind in There is a God: How the world’s most notorious atheist changed his mind (HarperOne 2007)


Here is a summary of some of his arguments:

Fingerprints of a designer


[Antony] Flew’s belief in God hinges on three aspects of nature: ‘The first is the fact that nature obeys laws. The second is the dimension of life … The third is the very existence of nature’ (p. 89).

The Laws of nature


Every scientist must assume that nature acts in certain predictable, measurable ways; this is what makes scientific discovery possible. Paul Davies argued that ‘science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview’ (p. 107). However, there is really no reason why nature should follow laws; the existence of such laws requires an explanation. Three questions must be answered: ‘Where do the laws of physics come from? Why is it that we have these laws instead of some other set? How is that we have a set of laws that drives featureless gases to life, consciousness, and intelligence?’ (p. 108). Flew argues along with many other classical and modern scientists that theism is the only serious answer.


When Flew was an atheist, he argued that the universe and its laws were themselves ultimate (p. 134). Every belief has some fundamental assumption; for theists, the existence of God is the fundamental assumption. Flew, however, took the universe and its most fundamental features as that assumption. The discovery that the universe was not infinite threw a wrench into this assumption; if the universe had begun to exist at some point in time, it was reasonable to assume something caused its beginning. Because it is more likely that God exists uncaused, rather than the universe, it is logical to argue for the existence of God from the existence of the universe (pp. 144–145).


The fine-tuning of the universe


Not only does our universe follow finely tuned physical laws, but laws which seem to be finely tuned to enable life to exist. The most common atheist answer is to assert that our universe is one of many others—the ‘multiverse’ speculation. It is interesting that atheists who refuse to believe in an unseen God, based supposedly on the lack of evidence for His existence, explain away the appearance of design by embracing the existence of an unknown number of other universes for which there is no evidence—or even any effect of their evidence. In any case, Flew argues that even if there were multiple universes, it would not solve the atheists’ dilemma; ‘multiverse or not, we still have to come to terms with the origin of the laws of nature. And the only viable explanation here is the divine Mind’ (p. 121).


The origin of life


Can the origins of a system of coded chemistry be explained in a way that makes no appeal whatever to the kinds of facts that we otherwise invoke to explain codes and languages, systems of communication, the impress of ordinary words on the world of matter?—Antony Flew


The existence of physical laws which allow life to survive is necessary, but not sufficient by itself, for the existence of life. The question of the origin of life became much more complex with the discovery of DNA, a molecule comprising ‘letters’ that code for the instructions to build the machinery of life. A real vicious circle is that the instructions to build decoding machinery are themselves encoded on the DNA. That life is governed by a complex code leads to the question:

‘Can the origins of a system of coded chemistry be explained in a way that makes no appeal whatever to the kinds of facts that we otherwise invoke to explain codes and languages, systems of communication, the impress of ordinary words on the world of matter?’ (p. 127).

He pointed out that natural selection can’t explain the origin of first life. Ultimately, a vast amount of information is behind life, and in every other case, information necessarily points to an intelligent source, so it is only reasonable that there be a Source behind this information as well

We do have some good theories with supporting evidence for the size of the universe Mass and how many light years it has grown to. The idea it started from a golf ball size to where it is today also has evidence (the rate of expansion has been shown to be increase as the result of “dark energy”, so at some earlier time it was smaller).


This is comes from Rich Deen, but is common knowledge:

Fine Tuning of the Physical Constants of the Universe​

Parameter


Max. Deviation​

Ratio of Electronsrotons
1:1037
Ratio of Electromagnetic Force:Gravity
1:1040
Expansion Rate of Universe
1:1055
Mass of Universe1
1:1059
Cosmological Constant
1:10120
These numbers represent the maximum deviation from the accepted values, that would either prevent the universe from existing now, not having matter, or be unsuitable for any form of life.

This is just 5 and Deen list over 30.

You can read more at :
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html




There is a system for single cell organisms to eventually become multi-cell organisms through evolution, but do you know how long science says that took to happen “naturally”: single cells were around more than 3.6 billion years ago and multi cells started 600,000,000 years ago, so it took 3 billion years for single cells to go to multi cells with the excellent system of evolution. BUT; without any known or even theorized system single cell life started from just chemicals in less than 500,000,000 years.

Science has been working on this problem for a 100 years and the more they find out the more they realize they do not know.

Science cannot “proof” anything about the spiritual universe since it is outside of its area. Yes, if you translate/interpret the bible as being all “literal”, it has problems, but no one does that. The Bible is not a science book and should not be read like a science book.

 

[drich0150]

The best place for me to start is at the very very beginning I guess. Science VS religion. Science says everything began with the Big Bang and everything started from nothing. Well religion, well Christianity says the same sort of thing, with its own little twist. God was there in the beginning and he created it all. Uhhhhhh…..Ok, well if there was nothing like it says in the Bible, how was god there?

Just because "creation" was our beginning does not mean it was THE beginning.

Recently Mr Steven Hawking pretty much the smartest man on the planet says this is impossible.

At the point of the big bang there was nothing at all, not even time existed, and nothing could exist before time. Which makes sense in a Steven Hawking kind of way. However this also makes sense to me. If there was nothing in the beginning then nothing existed, not even god.

How small of a mind does it take to assume that the whole of time and space revolves around our sense of reality?

Now that’s not to say that at the point of the big bang that all matter was created, and it is quite possible that GOD may have been the very first being ever created. Possible yes but I am still not convinced there is a god. I do firmly believe that there is an after life. A lot of you are probably saying he doesn’t believe in god but he believes in and after life? Well I look at it this way. According to science we all possess energy within our body’s, and according to science energy has a half life. Meaning it never really dissipates. My second thought on this is our memories. We all have them, and I think we bring them into the after life with us. If we did not retain any memories after death then the life we live would not only be pointless but we would not be self aware. We would have no conscious knowledge of ever being alive. In other words we would have never even known we existed.
Basic science has already proved the Bible and Christianity wrong.

So you believe in God, but only one of your choosing, one that man can control to suit the needs of popular culture...

How, you might ask? The speed of light. We are all taught that light travels at a fixed rate of speed. That it takes 8 Minutes for the suns light to travel to the earth. All those beautiful star we see at night, most of them are thousands of thousands of light years away. Meaning its taken that light thousands and thousands of years if not longer to reach our planet. However according to the bible and Christians the earth is only something like 6000 years old.

You would think that a system of faith that prides itself on the Truth of facts would have verified this claim.

Can you show or can the "science" that has proven Christianity wrong please show where the Bible makes that claim.. (Book Chapter and verse please)

That makes no sense at all. Not one bit.

Your kinda right. I mean without a biblical reference to give the earth a specific age it means nothing to conclude that the earth is a given age.

I mean something simple like that doesn’t exactly prove that there is no god, but it does contradict what the bible says and what Christianity says.

"christians" contradict what the bible says all of the time. Thankfully well meaning brothers like myself have been extended a large measure of grace.

The bible is a good book, lots of interesting STORIES in it. Yes I say stories because that is what it is. It is a book written BY MAN, not by god, but my men. That say they were instructed by god and that it is the word of god. Ummmm, no. Again it was written by humans, a long time ago. You know what we think of people today that say they see god, or are in communication with god….. We call them Crazy, and most times put them on medication and lock them away from society, in mental institutes. However back in the day they were known as profits. Interesting Huh?
In the grand scheme of things people are going to believe what they want to believe. That’s perfectly fine. Again I don’t see anything wrong with believing in god. It is a good thing, religion is a somewhat good thing. I say somewhat because there are many different religions and, religion it self have been responsible for more deaths and sacrifices on this planet than all the wars ever fought. For a person to believe in god, and read the bible and follow its message is not a bad thing. For the most part it keeps the human race under control, keeps them in fear that if they don’t do what the bible says that they are going to hell. So again I say its not a bad thing that Christianity exists. Most of the religions that I have heard about all pretty much say the same thing with there own little twist of course. The basic message is be good or be punished. Interesting huh? There’s another interesting story along those lines too. It’s a story of a fat guy that is watching us 24/7 and has a list of all the good little boys and girls and if your good you are rewarded, if you are bad you are not rewarded. Sounds kind of familiar doesn’t it? It’s a great story and for the most part, not always, but it seems to keep children from being really bad especially during the month of December, but we all grew up and realized that Santa isn’t real. Just like God. Christianity is just the adult version of Santa Clause. Yes I know the whole Idea of Santa was invented or thought up long after the story of Jesus, I’m just saying there rather similar.
There is another thing that bothers me quite a bit, and that is all these Christians that believe in God so blindly and so strongly, they actually believe that god/Jesus controls there life. I hear it all the time. God gave me the strength to get off drugs. God gave me the power to overcome my fears. God helped me get that job I have wanted. GOD GOD GOD. I have news for you people. God did not do a damn thing. YOU DID!!!!!!!! You decided to get off drugs. You were the one that decided to get off you lazy butt and get that job, and You alone conquered your fears. Another thing people say a lot when things go good or bad. It was gods will. REALLY? So it was gods will, to see that bus full of handicap children fly off the road and crash? It was gods will to give the nicest person you know cancer. It’s gods will that some child is being raped and molested right now in some part of the world? Does that really what helps you sleep at night? Really? Come on people, get with the program. There is no God, if there was he would not allow such horrible things to happen. Especially one that says he loves everyone. Oh right, my mistake all those bad things that happen in the world are because of Satan.

So, basically you are hanging this whole rant on your medieval Sunday school understanding of Christianity? Wow. you might want to verify facts and maybe come at this from a couple of different angels, to cover some of your bases alittle better next time. Primarily because if you put all of your eggs in YEC argument, then when someone points out that the bible does not actually teach a YEC, then you will look foolish for all of your efforts.

That’s right because when things go so wrong with our lives we don’t want to ever blame our selfs or the sick bastard that rapes children, we would rather blame the devil.

Who does this?

Which brings me to my second point on the subject of god’s will and divine plan. If there was this almighty plan, and everything has already been pre determined how as a person do we even have free will.

Sin is anything not in the Expressed Will of God
Evil is a malicious intent to commit sin.
Free Will is the ability to be outside of the Expressed will of God. Or if you prefer "Freewill" is the ability to sin. Why have we been given this ability? to choose whether or not we wish to be with God for eternity.

I mean if god knows what we are going to and its already been written.

If you watch a Movie and then see it again with a friend, does knowing how the movie ends, before your friend does mean that you wrote the movie? (No it does not)

God simply knows what we will do before we do it. It doesn't mean we were puppeted to do so. We are made to play out what God already knows for our benefit, our Judgment. So no one can doubt our eternal assignments.

Then we don’t really have a choice. God made the choice for us.

Remember free will in not freedom of Choice. No where is it written that we have complete freedom of Choice, nor is it written that we do not have any freedom of choice either.

Nope… There was and is no device plan nothing is pre determined, and we all have free will. We all make our own choices in life, NOT GOD!
The thing really that gets me is that God is supposed to be all powerful, all knowing all loving. If he knew that we were all sinners and and such bad people, that we needed saving. Why would he even bother creating us at all. I mean seriously think about the logic there. What is this some kind of sick joke? God created us and knew all along that we are sinners. He gave us free will, he gave us self awareness and the ability to do bad things. Again I ask, WHY.

So we can choose where we wish to spend eternity. In order for us to do this there must be a choice, and the consequences of that choice must be allowed to play out. otherwise the decisions we make would mean nothing. If God's expressed will is Good, then the only thing left is sin/Bad choices. Therefore if/when we choose to be outside of God's Expressed Will then those choices will and must have a negative consequence.

Why would someone that says they love us do something so sinister. This to me does not sound like a being that loves us. Its rather sloppy work in my opinion. I mean for a all powerful all loving and all knowing GOD. I know exactly what you are thinking though. That’s the meaning of life. That’s what god wanted right. For all of us to be sinners. Repent our sins, accept god, do good on this planet and then we are rewarded by going to heaven and living for ever in paradise right? Well if he loved us so much why not cut out the middle man all together and allow us to have always lived happily, and with god. Why bother with the pain and suffering? It just does not make any sense to do that to someone you love.

He did this once, and how did it result? Or do you not know of the story of Lucifer's fall from Grace? God creates Sentient beings. The consequence of that (Creating truly sentient beings) is that not all of them will want to think and act as their creator would want them to. Therefore "we" need a place and some time to act out our hearts desires so that we can be fully aware of our hearts greatest desire away for the known glory of God. Then on the day of our judgment our hearts desire will be made known to us, and our decisions will not be clouded by what God can offer us. We will know that God's judgment is a fair one. Because remember Not all want to be with God, but at the same time no one want to elect Hell. The greedy want the offerings of God just not God Himself. God has put us in a place where His "offerings' are not known to us, so we can make an honest choice.

To be completely honest with you though, I really want to believe there is a god. It would be nice to know that this isn’t all there is. To all those that believe, I envy you. It must be an amazing feeling to think that you are going to heaven. I just hope your right.

You better not hope too much, or if you do, maybe you should think your wish through a little better.

 

[SteveNZ]

... I know I’m going to get a lot of people saying YES THERE IS, and give me all this so called proof that is in the Bible, and try and give me some lame example of God’s existence. .................It just does not make any sense to do that to someone you love.

To be completely honest with you though, I really want to believe there is a god.......... [FONT=&quot]I could go on and on and on about this but I think I have made my point. [/FONT]

Hi jaygatz,

I know where you are coming from.

Do this for me. sort out your basic science on the speed of light and distance the stars are from the earth.
..... look at the assumptions used to estimate the distance planets are from the earth (*I am a surveyor into measurement science, there is only the single star that has an observable parallax hence we must assume trhings.)
..... then look at the assumption required to state the time it takes the light to get from the stars to the earth. What wavelengths of light and interferrence patterns are required..... but remember these arent allowed to also be used to estimate the distance from the stars to the earth because that is just circular reasoning....
..... Get out a tape measure and stretch it across the floor. Now ignore the yellow/white (or whatever) tape itself and look at the little metal bit at the end attached to the tape. Now in the scale of things that is all us humans can see. We use that to make assumptions (perfectly valid) and decide that the entire tape is the silver stainless steel stuff-no tape-no unit at the end, and no divisions with numbers. * Even if we have a manual saying such exists and worth looking to see if it is true.

My Thoughts: Are you looking for a God that suits who you want him to be! There are plenty out there just choose one.

My Testimony
1- Spiritual beings/powers have proved themselves real.
2- One of those beings identified he was the God of Abraham and from this I learned of the Messiah.
3- He is real and the way he is. I can scream/yell/conclude/rubbish him all I want but this will not change ....... and I am so glad because the real God is amazing.....

You should see the things he can do......?
And yes you should see some of the things that my mind cannot get over or comprehend. Look in the bible there are plenty of pretty nasty things that this same god told folk to do.... feel free to judge him for this... tell him what you think! He appreciates honesty.

Believe me the one I pray to and calls himself this same God of Abraham is real. And yes I do not understand 'creation' (I have completed a few papers in geology and science) BUT do know his reality..... and his power... so have much evidence that such creation is possible.....

Seek him out ......... Hmmmmm I think believing in him without knowing him is like believing in a dad but never meeting/interacting with him. What a miserable way to be! When the Spirit of God touches you ..... you will know and realise the truth within his scripture.......

PS - You have never met the God of the bible, you all but say so!
A challenge. Go to your local salvation army and ask if you can help serve this Christmas. Watch them pray for the food to come in (probably already have), watch them serve and touch folk with love and healing. Ask the folk to pray for you as you just have not found God, and just cannot believe he is real ........

I pray that you will find what you seek in your heart....... May my Lord God be gracious to you and guide you.