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Proverbs 16:9 NASB20 - "The mind of a person plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps."
To me, the NASB is saying the same thing as the NLT. I don't split hairs.
Proverbs 20:24 NASB20 - "A man's steps are [ordained] by the LORD; How then can a person understand his way?"
That's from the NASB.
It is limiting to suggest that God’s plan has to be linear. I am not saying God has no plan, but that it need not be linear. People in the OT understood scrolls to record events, God’s actual recording, or predestining, could be very different to a linear story. God says:There is a Heavenly Scroll that has all things outlined within it, right down to owls and falcons. How much more, then, does this Scroll apply to humans?
Isaiah 34:14-17 NIV - "Desert creatures will meet with hyenas, and wild goats will bleat to each other; there the night creatures will also lie down and find for themselves places of rest. 15 The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. 16 Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. 17 He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation."
It amazes me that I've never heard a pastor mention these passages. Not once.
Jer 18:8 if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.
Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.
Job 36:10-12 He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.
Eze 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord Jehovah. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live.
Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
That’s a very interesting verse because the Hebrew word for “ordain” isn’t in the verse. It must have something to do with word usage in this particular case. I don’t know about your version but mine shows the word “ordain” in italics. Here’s what Bible hub shows. It says “man’s steps Yahweh”. So I’m not sure how they determined the word ordained should be there.
None of these verses put any holes in the idea of "free will", they just show that God has a plan for us. This plan is even more necessary if a man "has" a free will. To prevent the system from descending into chaos.Anyway, this is just one of a few hundred passage sets that put holes in the idea of "free will." In other words, let's not get too excited about this one or three verses.
We see in Jerimiah that God does change His mind based upon mans actions. We also see in the following scriptures that man’s actions are important to an outcome.
We also see that God does not have delight in the death of the wicked, but rather calls them to repentance.
None of these verses put any holes in the idea of "free will", they just show that God has a plan for us. This plan is even more necessary if a man "has" a free will. To prevent the system from descending into chaos.
Yes, but there are plenty of Bible verses that show God desires all people to have a chance at life. Many more say our "choices" are important, on top of this the Early Church Fathers fought predestination of man's salvation, saying so clearly "we have free will, or God is not just".Besides, I'm just showing you Bible verses . . . I haven't shared my opinion on the matter as of yet.
Joh 1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.
1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 56-50
Chap. XLIII — Responsibility Asserted.
But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end;52 nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.
As we see free will was an important understanding of the early church. There are pleanty of scriptures which shows us that God does give us a choice. There is a choice of life or death based upon what we do:Chap. XXXVII. — Men Are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It Is Not True, Therefore, That Some Are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
1. This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. Rejecting therefore the good, and as it were spuing it out, they shall all deservedly incur the just judgment of God, which also the Apostle Paul testifies in his Epistle to the Romans, where he says, “But dost thou despise the riches of His goodness, and patience, and long-suffering, being ignorant that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest to thyself wrath against the day of wrath, and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God.” “But glory and honour,” he says, “to every one that doeth good.” (Rom 2:4, Rom 2:5, Rom 2:7) God therefore has given that which is good, as the apostle tells us in this Epistle, and they who work it shall receive glory and honour, because they have done that which is good when they had it in their power not to do it; but those who do it not shall receive the just judgment of God, because they did not work good when they had it in their power so to do.
2. But if some had been made by nature bad, and others good, these latter would not be deserving of praise for being good, for such were they created; nor would the former be reprehensible, for thus they were made [originally]. But since all men are of the same nature, able both to hold fast and to do what is good; and, on the other hand, having also the power to cast it from them and not to do it, — some do justly receive praise even among men who are under the control of good laws (and much more from God), and obtain deserved testimony of their choice of good in general, and of persevering therein; but the others are blamed, and receive a just condemnation, because of their rejection of what is fair and good. And therefore the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power so to do, and because by excessive negligence we might become forgetful, and thus stand in need of that good counsel which the good God has given us to know by means of the prophets.
3. For this reason the Lord also said, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” (Mat 5:16) And, “Take heed to yourselves, lest perchance your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and worldly cares.” (Luk 21:34) And, “Let your loins be girded about, and your lamps burning, and ye like unto men that wait for their Lord, when He returns from the wedding, that when He cometh and knocketh, they may open to Him. Blessed is that servant whom his Lord, when He cometh, shall find so doing.” (Luk_12:35, Luk_12:36) And again, “The servant who knows his Lord’s will, and does it not, shall be beaten with many stripes.” (Luk_12:47) And, “Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?” (Luk 6:46) And again, “But if the servant say in his heart, The Lord delayeth, and begin to beat his fellow-servants, and to eat, and drink, and to be drunken, his Lord will come in a day on which he does not expect Him, and shall cut him in sunder, and appoint his portion with the hypocrites.” (Luk 12:45, Luk 12:46; Mat 24:48, Mat 24:51) All such passages demonstrate the independent will151 of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.
4. No doubt, if any one is unwilling to follow the Gospel itself, it is in his power [to reject it], but it is not expedient. For it is in man’s power to disobey God, and to forfeit what is good; but [such conduct] brings no small amount of injury and mischief. And on this account Paul says, “All things are lawful to me, but all things are not expedient;” (1Co 6:12) referring both to the liberty of man, in which respect “all things are lawful,” God exercising no compulsion in regard to him; and [by the expression] “not expedient” pointing out that we “should not use our liberty as a cloak of maliciousness,” (1Pe 2:16) for this is not expedient. And again he says, “Speak ye every man truth with his neighbour.” (Eph 4:25) And, “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor scurrility, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.” (Eph 4:29) And, “For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord; walk honestly as children of the light, not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in anger and jealousy. And such were some of you; but ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified in the name of our Lord.” (1Co 6:11) If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things, and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free will, in whose likeness man was created, advice is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.
5. And not merely in works, but also in faith, has God preserved the will of man free and under his own control, saying, “According to thy faith be it unto thee;” (Mat 9:29) thus showing that there is a faith specially belonging to man, since he has an opinion specially his own. And again, “All things are possible to him that believeth;” (Mat 9:23) and, “Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.” (Mat 8:13) Now all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith. And for this reason, “he that believeth in Him has eternal life while he who believeth not the Son hath not eternal life, but the wrath of God shall remain upon him.” (Joh 3:36) In the same manner therefore the Lord, both showing His own goodness, and indicating that man is in his own free will and his own power, said to Jerusalem, “How often have I wished to gather thy children together, as a hen [gathereth] her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Wherefore your house shall be left unto you desolate.” (Mat 23:37, Mat 23:38)
1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.
Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.
Yes, but there are plenty of Bible verses that show God desires all people to have a chance at life. Many more say our "choices" are important, on top of this the Early Church Fathers fought predestination of man's salvation, saying so clearly "we have free will, or God is not just".
Irenaeus in his Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 35-38 [A.D. 120-202] shows clearly that it is man's free will choice to choose or reject God. We see this in all the Early Church Fathers.
As we see free will was an important understanding of the early church. There are pleanty of scriptures which shows us that God does give us a choice.
Yes but that is a direct addition, like what JW's do. It is not in scripture.(I just love the way the NLT presents the following Scripture) - Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."
Rom 11:7 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:
john 14:15-24 If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.
Iranaeus - Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39-End
4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God.
Only because the Early Church disagrees with your view of scripture. There is plenty of scripture that agrees with "free will".I hear you, but the Bible is sufficient for me.
Yes but that is a direct addition, like what JW's do. It is not in scripture.
No one denies that God blinds the sinner. What I do deny is that God wants to blind some (on purpose). I believe they first get a chance at life before being blinded.Haha . . . that was a little sneaky! You didn't include verse 8 from the ASV translation that you graciously offered. Here's both verses for all to read:
Romans 11:7-8 ASV - 7 What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 8 according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day."
I'm not going any further until we start playing with a fair deck.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her own brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Joh 1:9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.
1Ti 2:4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
1Ti 2:4-6 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own times;
No one denies that God blinds the sinner. What I do deny is that God wants to blind some (on purpose). I believe they first get a chance at life before being blinded.
Let's take the key scripture used by the Early Church Fathers, to stand on "free will".
God says "I wanted to gather Israel (people) as a hen chicks", so we see a desire in God to gather His people. But "they would not". It was the people who would not. It was not God's choice. Otherwise, Jesus would say "I only wanted my select few, so I blinded you. Ha ha!".
Also how do you explain the appostles saying God calls "all" men to repent, to follow the truth. All not an elect few.
Please look:
How? What is funny?You crack me up.
How? What is funny?
Oh... Firstly what view of the scriptures do you find "funny", how is it wrong?A few things. The way you view the Scriptures, they way you're struggling to "listen" to me, including the idea that I largely agree with you.
Yet . . . yet, you continue to attempt to prove me of certain ideas with Scripture when you don't need to. haha
That's what cracks me up.
Oh... Firstly what view of the scriptures do you find "funny", how is it wrong?
Yep. There are tons and tons of passages that indicate that the Plan of God is not set in stone. If I held that position, it'd be easy for me to at least attempt to "prove."
Nor should He delight in their wickedness and Spiritual Blindness, for He put them there. So He certainly understands their predicament.
(I just love the way the NLT presents the following Scripture) - Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."
In my opinion, this is a Keystone passage from the entire Bible. There is so much perspective to be gained in the above two verses. If we want to Truly understand the Bible, Rom 11:7-8 need to be included when we explain our understanding of the Story of God. So . . . unbelievable. I cannot express enough how incredible our Bible is.
The rest of your post is interesting. I enjoy reading what you have to offer.
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