My Stupid Challenge

[Speedwell]

Versus time divided into BC/AD, millions of churches, songs, hymns, carols, holidays, symbols on (your?) flags, iconography, artwork, slogans, debates, organizations, schools, hospitals, debate teams, testimonies, anecdotes, books, the Bible, and martyrs?

That is sure a lot of evidence that many, many people are Christians, no doubt about it, but none at all for the literal inerrancy of the KJV.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Then don't give me that 'gradual change' or 'fun example' stuff and expect me to agree.

I said that we don't NEED to fossils. But we do happen to HAVE a lot of fossils.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Still spin, no matter if you do try to spin your way out of the spin.....geez

How is pointing out that you are misrepresenting my actual position, "spin"?

And maybe you should stop changing the subject in order to divert attention from your clearly spun posts. I know exactly what to meant.

What spin? What subject changing??

Think I'll give you all a time out for misbehaving a bit more than usual.

Yeah, sure... whatever helps you in avoiding the points we actually are making.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Versus time divided into BC/AD, millions of churches, songs, hymns, carols, holidays, symbols on (your?) flags, iconography, artwork, slogans, debates, organizations, schools, hospitals, debate teams, testimonies, anecdotes, books, the Bible, and martyrs?

That would be evidence of the existance of christianity, the religion.

Just like you can find examples of every single one of those things for the existance of other religions, like Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc.

 

[Paul Finch]

Versus time divided into BC/AD, millions of churches, songs, hymns, carols, holidays, symbols on (your?) flags, iconography, artwork, slogans, debates, organizations, schools, hospitals, debate teams, testimonies, anecdotes, books, the Bible, and martyrs?

They are evidence for the existence of Christianity not the truth of Christianity, there are the same trappings for UFO's and ghosts and many other things which tells us that of themselves it's all completely meaningless, the only meaning they all have is the meaning we want to give them.

 

[Jimmy D]

Give me just a quick/simple piece of scientific evidence that proves or even strongly suggests evolution and I'll make my point.

Is it really worth it Kenny? Many members have tried on different threads and you dismiss it out of hand. Too simple an example you will dismiss as opinion, too complex and you will say you can't be bothered learning about such nonsense. I am not implying that you are stupid BTW, I know you aren't, but even the sentence you've posted above implies that your mind is made up and nothing will change it. Such close mindedness is not a virtue in my opinion.

I've no reason to believe it was not written down way back when. Why would you think just word of mouth?

I was under the impression that that is the general consensus, I'm prepared to be corrected as it doesn't make much difference to me.

However, I do accept the scholarly view that the Pentateuch wasn't written until much much later than events like the Creation story, flood etc.

Scholars in the first half of the 20th century came to the conclusion that the Yahwist was produced in the monarchic period, specifically at the court of Solomon, 10th century BCE, and the Priestly work in the middle of the 5th century BCE (the author was even identified as Ezra), but more recent thinking is that the Yahwist was written either just before or during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BCE, and the Priestly final edition was made late in the Exilic period or soon after.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Genesis

It's only a matter of time.

No, it's completely different. Darwin has provided us with a workable framework and it's that that's important, not the man.

 

[AV1611VET]

They are evidence for the existence of Christianity not the truth of Christianity,

That's like saying a falling apple is evidence for the existence of physics.

When John the Baptist was in prison and had a lapse of faith, he sent his disciples to Jesus to ask if He truly was the Messiah.

Jesus responded by giving his disciples an overview of His works as proof of His messiahship.

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
Matthew 11: 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Matthew 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

 

[AV1611VET]

That would be evidence of the existance of christianity, the religion.

Just like you can find examples of every single one of those things for the existance of other religions, like Islam, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc.

Hardening your heart, are you?

Exodus 7:11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.

Exodus 7:22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 8:7 And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.

 

[Jimmy D]

That's like saying a falling apple is evidence for the existence of physics.

When John the Baptist was in prison and had a lapse of faith, he sent his disciples to Jesus to ask if He truly was the Messiah.

Jesus responded by giving his disciples an overview of His works as proof of His messiahship.

Matthew 11:2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
Matthew 11: 3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
Matthew 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
Matthew 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.

Hearsay, your honour.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hearsay, your honour.

I'll allow it.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[miknik5]

But all the evidence we have says otherwise.

What won't hold? Why not answer the question?

Also, I notice this hasn't been answered by any creationists yet...:

Perhaps a Creationist could plant the seed from the banana on the left? Let me know how you go & I'll tell you why you can't find any seeds in that banana....

I am nothing more than one who knows that in all things GOD is SOVEREIGN

What you are "fighting" against is religion

It was never religion vs science. Both are simply schools of thought and practices that man has put in place to better explain and understand his temporal existence in an ever changing world

If one were to try to challenge GOD vs science

There is none
GOD is SOVEREIGN

 

[miknik5]

Why are you bothering to ask? We both know that no matter what I say, you will not change your belief that Adam was the first man, and I'm not bothered about that.
But it is a fact that there is no actual evidence for a being called Adam having existed (and no, the mitochondrial Adam is not THE Adam from the Bible), but there is a shed load of evidence Charles Darwin having existed.

Adam meant man sir

There is no evidence that man existed?

Where did you come from sir?

Who are your first parents?

 

[Kylie]

When will you show us how mutations add up and form features such as the dolphins echo-location system?

In a differnet thread - "Do Evolutionists Really Understand The Complexity Of Things" - I discussed this sort of things, but using eyes instead. I'm going to cut and paste my post from there.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...exity-of-things.7970655/page-39#post-70382555

Your skin is sensitive to infra-red radiation, which is part of the same spectrum as light. Our skin feels it as heat. I could blindfold you, but you would still be able to tell easily when a source of infra-red radiation was being directed at you, because you'd feel the heat from it. In fact, infra-red is used in heaters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater

Now, lets say I put your hand on the table, palm up. If I shone IR radiation onto it, like from a special IR flashlight, you could tell when the IR was switched on and switched off. You could feel it as heat. But you couldn't tell which direction it was coming from. This is similar to the eyes we find in very primitive life forms, they are basically light sensitive cells on the surface of the body. This is similar to the eyes of the earthworm. They are only enough to tell it if it is in light or dark.

But now, imagine that you cup your hand. Now you can get some idea of which direction the IR radiation is coming from. If I hold the IR light above your elbow and aim the beam at your hand, then your fingertips will feel the heat but the palm of your hand will not. And if I move the light so it is out past your hand, then your fingers won't feel it (not the underside of them anyway, where they felt the heat before), but your palm will. So now, unlike before, you can tell which direction the IR light is coming from. This is similar to the eyes of planarians, a kind of flatworm.

The next stages are rather difficult to use your hand as an analogy. We started with simple light sensitive cells on the surface of the skin, and saw how this primitive eye was improved by indenting it into a bowl shape. Now imagine that it keeps indenting, getting deeper, and the opening gets narrower. Now, any light shining onto this eye will strike only a small part of the light sensitive surface, giving a greater accuracy in the direction of light. And this increased accuracy formed by having a smaller hole will start to form a crude image. It's the same principle as a pinhole camera. And as the eye begins to close up, it starts to fill with a jelly like material (which only needs one or two mutations - mucous is quite common, after all) which supports the shape of the eye. This is the type of eye that the chambered nautilus has.

Of course, this can be improved. A pinhole camera must have a small hole, which can cause problems when light levels are low. But opening the hole wider also gives worse eyesight because it can't form images as clearly. But if the jelly inside the eye begins to thicken, it can form a lens which helps to focus the image, thus allowing a clearer image to form, even with a wider hole. This is the kind of eye that is found in your average garden snail.

Further simple mutations can develop the lens (remember, each mutation doesn't have to create a perfect eye, it just needs to be a slight improvement over what came before), move the lens to a better position and change the lens's refractive index.

So we can end up with a complex eye, such as the eye of an octopus, having developed from simple light sensitive cells on the skin. Each change was tiny and required only slight mutations from what came before, but all the little changes added up to form a complex eye from a simple beginning. And each step can be found in animals alive today, each animal having developed the eyes it has to the degree it needs them. A worm, for example, with only simple eye spots, doesn't develop more advanced eyes because it simply doesn't need to. It needs only to tell light from dark, and developing more advanced eyes would mean a use of resources that it could use to better effect with something else. (It's the same reason why you'd need only a low resolution screen to see if someone is walking up the front path, but a much higher resolution screen to watch your blu ray collection on).

So, going back to your puppies analogy, if you accept that small changes in one generation can produce some that are slightly stronger, then you should also accept that small changes in one generation can turn a flat patch of light sensitive cells into a slightly indented one. And just as how a slightly stronger puppy has a slightly better chance of surviving long enough to reproduce, a slightly indented eyespot can give the individual possessing it a slightly better chance to reproduce. And over many generations, this happens again and again - animals in each population getting slightly better able to survive, whether it is puppies that are slightly stronger or worms with slightly better eyesight. The mechanism behind both of these is exactly the same - small changes per generation which give a slight benefit, which add up over many generations to create new species and more advanced body structures.

 

[Kylie]

Adam has quite a lot of support

And what support is that?

Lemme guess - the Bible. Shame we can't test that claim, isn't it?

 

[Kylie]

There are many witnesses to THE TRUTH. GOD has made sure of it
In this way no man will b able to sound off "his many other theories and positions" on HIM

People of every religion say that.

But you don't see it as proof of other religion, do ya?

 

[Kylie]

I don't think man was ever a different species....But once the 2 of every kind left the ark they speciated into the know animals of today.

So now you accept not only evolution, but ultra-rapid evolution?

 

[miknik5]

In a differnet thread - "Do Evolutionists Really Understand The Complexity Of Things" - I discussed this sort of things, but using eyes instead. I'm going to cut and paste my post from there.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...exity-of-things.7970655/page-39#post-70382555

Your skin is sensitive to infra-red radiation, which is part of the same spectrum as light. Our skin feels it as heat. I could blindfold you, but you would still be able to tell easily when a source of infra-red radiation was being directed at you, because you'd feel the heat from it. In fact, infra-red is used in heaters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_heater

Now, lets say I put your hand on the table, palm up. If I shone IR radiation onto it, like from a special IR flashlight, you could tell when the IR was switched on and switched off. You could feel it as heat. But you couldn't tell which direction it was coming from. This is similar to the eyes we find in very primitive life forms, they are basically light sensitive cells on the surface of the body. This is similar to the eyes of the earthworm. They are only enough to tell it if it is in light or dark.

But now, imagine that you cup your hand. Now you can get some idea of which direction the IR radiation is coming from. If I hold the IR light above your elbow and aim the beam at your hand, then your fingertips will feel the heat but the palm of your hand will not. And if I move the light so it is out past your hand, then your fingers won't feel it (not the underside of them anyway, where they felt the heat before), but your palm will. So now, unlike before, you can tell which direction the IR light is coming from. This is similar to the eyes of planarians, a kind of flatworm.

The next stages are rather difficult to use your hand as an analogy. We started with simple light sensitive cells on the surface of the skin, and saw how this primitive eye was improved by indenting it into a bowl shape. Now imagine that it keeps indenting, getting deeper, and the opening gets narrower. Now, any light shining onto this eye will strike only a small part of the light sensitive surface, giving a greater accuracy in the direction of light. And this increased accuracy formed by having a smaller hole will start to form a crude image. It's the same principle as a pinhole camera. And as the eye begins to close up, it starts to fill with a jelly like material (which only needs one or two mutations - mucous is quite common, after all) which supports the shape of the eye. This is the type of eye that the chambered nautilus has.

Of course, this can be improved. A pinhole camera must have a small hole, which can cause problems when light levels are low. But opening the hole wider also gives worse eyesight because it can't form images as clearly. But if the jelly inside the eye begins to thicken, it can form a lens which helps to focus the image, thus allowing a clearer image to form, even with a wider hole. This is the kind of eye that is found in your average garden snail.

Further simple mutations can develop the lens (remember, each mutation doesn't have to create a perfect eye, it just needs to be a slight improvement over what came before), move the lens to a better position and change the lens's refractive index.

So we can end up with a complex eye, such as the eye of an octopus, having developed from simple light sensitive cells on the skin. Each change was tiny and required only slight mutations from what came before, but all the little changes added up to form a complex eye from a simple beginning. And each step can be found in animals alive today, each animal having developed the eyes it has to the degree it needs them. A worm, for example, with only simple eye spots, doesn't develop more advanced eyes because it simply doesn't need to. It needs only to tell light from dark, and developing more advanced eyes would mean a use of resources that it could use to better effect with something else. (It's the same reason why you'd need only a low resolution screen to see if someone is walking up the front path, but a much higher resolution screen to watch your blu ray collection on).

So, going back to your puppies analogy, if you accept that small changes in one generation can produce some that are slightly stronger, then you should also accept that small changes in one generation can turn a flat patch of light sensitive cells into a slightly indented one. And just as how a slightly stronger puppy has a slightly better chance of surviving long enough to reproduce, a slightly indented eyespot can give the individual possessing it a slightly better chance to reproduce. And over many generations, this happens again and again - animals in each population getting slightly better able to survive, whether it is puppies that are slightly stronger or worms with slightly better eyesight. The mechanism behind both of these is exactly the same - small changes per generation which give a slight benefit, which add up over many generations to create new species and more advanced body structures.

Exactly where I thought this was going

 

[miknik5]

And what support is that?

Lemme guess - the Bible. Shame we can't test that claim, isn't it?

You are here
You are a testament to the truth that there was a first.......parent

 

[miknik5]

So now you accept not only evolution, but ultra-rapid evolution?

Again you are changing the outside package, the superficial outward man by changing and altering and unnaturally changing the gene makeup so that "super genes" are expressed

How about the inner man?

Will this outer package guarantee a perfect inner quality human goodly man?

It didn't work for Eve who was taken out from Adam

The outer packaging was different but one would have thought that the inner image should have remained (again not talking about the gene makeup but the spirit)

 

[miknik5]

Tagliatelle monster

When I posted using the word mutation it was in error and stemmed from my laziness in not going back and rereading a posters simple post to 57 and AV "we fear of a modified planet"

I already understood this to mean that science has the ability to change (mutate) genes to bring forth a better man(not sure that is the case since it isn't the outward package that dictates the right idea of a better person)