My struggle with bibles

[Servus]

Indeed, Catholics often maintain unity within the same church without resorting to anathematising those with whom they disagree.

Huh?

 

[The Liturgist]

My brother, we are all brothers in Christ, so please do not go too hard on us Catholics such as @Xeno.of.athens and myself. We all believe in the Good News, that Jesus saves (John 3:16), and that God has a Trinity, regardless of denomination (except for Unitarians).

[Edited by AlexB23 to not condemn the Unitarians as harshly]

I don’t think Unitarianism can be spoken of harshly enough. It’s a dreadful heresy, particularly in the USA and UK where it has shed in most congregations any pretense of being Christian. And “clergy exchange” programs with the Unitarians of Hungary and Transylvania will ensure that they become like the UUA and the British Universalists.

Interestingly many people in the uS and elsewhere converted to the Baha’i Faith because in its early years it was misinterpreted as being a sort of exotic Oriental form of transcendental religion like what most Unitarian Universalists became, before transitioning to their present political focus. Likewise, many Quakers degenerated into a similar belief system.

 

[The Liturgist]

My suggestion - as a staff member - you should really read the forum rules about calling a group not Christian.

Unitarians are not considered Christian according to the CF.com Statement of Faith. Faith Groups List

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Huh?

When Catholics have good-faith disagreements, they typically do not divide the church into denominations. In contrast, Protestantism has often seen the creation of new denominations following doctrinal disputes.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Unitarians are not considered Christian according to the CF.com Statement of Faith. Faith Groups List

Am I mistaken or did you not request that we have any interactions? Please decide, because if you have changed your mind, we can re-engage in conversations. Which is it?

 

[The Liturgist]

Am I mistaken or did you not request that we have any interactions? Please decide, because if you have changed your mind, we can re-engage in conversations. Which is it?

Enough time has passed, I took you off of ignore and am informing the mods. I feel it would be uncharitable to continue to ignore you.

 

[Servus]

When Catholics have good-faith disagreements, they typically do not divide the church into denominations. In contrast, Protestantism has often seen the creation of new denominations following doctrinal disputes.

Protestantism was started by Catholics doing just that. And before that it was the Great Schism. Catholics break off into some other branch over disagreements all the time. But of course they're excommunicated by the RCC magisterium.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

When I am looking for accuracy, I first look at the literal translations. Then, I look at the Greek and Hebrew language scholars for language, commentaries for context, and other translations for insight.

Literal Translation of the Holy Bible Copyright © 1976-2000 by Jay P. Green, Sr. All rights reserved.
Young's Literal Translation By J. N. Young (Author of the Young's Analytical Concordance).
American Standard Version Published in 1901
NASV

Word Pictures in the New Testament (A. T. Robertson)
Word Studies in the New Testament (M. R. Vincent)
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words
Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old Testament Words

Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament
Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

GOD'S WORD by God's Word to the Nations Mission Society.
Brenton's English Septuagint

 

[chevyontheriver]

Just fine, thank you. I

OK then. God gave YOU everything you need. And that other guy you disagree with, God obviously did not give him what he needed. Hmmm.

f you don't trust in your own rational powers, how do you think at all? Will you put your trust in someone else to use his "rational powers" for you?

I have limits to my understanding. I muddle on mostly. I am in awe of your rational powers. Not really though, because I suspect there are limits to yours too. I don't trust mine without limit. I think maybe you trust yours too much.

Job 12.24 He deprives the leaders of the earth of their reason; he makes them wander in a trackless waste.
Acts 18.4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
1 Cor 1.24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

God gave you unlimited rational powers but I have not received the same.

James 1.5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

I ask God and trust I will get a portion of wisdom.

We will not all agree on everything, but those who are like-minded can find unity in Christ despite some peripheral differences.

Unity? Not you and me I'm sure.

Ecclesiastical leadership is not equal to Christ.

Whoever said it was. But then why even have a Church if it is not a ground for truth and understanding that Jesus somehow bothered to found?

Our relationship with Christ must be so personal that we can appropriate wisdom from him directly, and not have to trust those who say, "Trust me." Our assurance of Salvation comes directly from him, and not from those who say, "Trust me."

Then the Church is superfluous in your wisdom. Maybe a bunch of people to get together to sing songs but otherwise what?

I get assurance of my Salvation directly from Christ. Do you get your assurance of Salvation from a priest, from the Pope, or from Christ himself? If it is from Christ, then you are trusting in your own reason, and in wisdom that you've received from him.

I am so happy for you that you have an assurance of salvation. I wonder in the end how many people who have such an assurance will be told at judgement day to depart because Jesus doesn't really know them. A false assurance is possible. At least most who say they are assured will admit to that possibility because they disagree with the other guy who also says he is assured. After all, he got his claimed rational powers from God but those powers lead him elsewhere than they led you. Someone's not right. How are you assured that your assurance is not a false assurance? Or is it just his assurance that is false?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Protestantism was started by Catholics doing just that. And before that it was the Great Schism. Catholics break off into some other branch over disagreements all the time. But of course they're excommunicated by the RCC magisterium.

The discontents initiated new denominations in the case of Protestants, and the Orthodox separated for a myriad of political, linguistic, and social reasons. However, the theological basis for this separation, in my view, remains relatively insubstantial.

 

[AlexB23]

I don’t think Unitarianism can be spoken of harshly enough. It’s a dreadful heresy, particularly in the USA and UK where it has shed in most congregations any pretense of being Christian. And “clergy exchange” programs with the Unitarians of Hungary and Transylvania will ensure that they become like the UUA and the British Universalists.

Interestingly many people in the uS and elsewhere converted to the Baha’i Faith because in its early years it was misinterpreted as being a sort of exotic Oriental form of transcendental religion like what most Unitarian Universalists became, before transitioning to their present political focus. Likewise, many Quakers degenerated into a similar belief system.

Could we say that Unitarianism is a demonic teaching, cos it is not of Christ?

 

[RandyPNW]

OK then. God gave YOU everything you need. And that other guy you disagree with, God obviously did not give him what he needed. Hmmm.

"Iron sharpens iron."

God gave you unlimited rational powers but I have not received the same.

Don't agree. People don't have "unlimited rational powers." I'm sorry you think I'm saying this.

I ask God and trust I will get a portion of wisdom.

Me too.

But then why even have a Church if it is not a ground for truth and understanding that Jesus somehow bothered to found?

I agree that the Church is a good source of truth. However, the Church leadership, if it is responsible, will not be the source of our Salvation, but rather, point us to Christ who is our Salvation. There will always be those who privately wish to be the source of our Salvation themselves, or steal some of God's glory. That's why I recommend caution in putting the Chruch leadership as an authority above the authority of the Apostles and the Scriptures.

I am so happy for you that you have an assurance of salvation. I wonder in the end how many people who have such an assurance will be told at judgement day to depart because Jesus doesn't really know them. A false assurance is possible.

This is why we need to go directly to Jesus for truth, and only allow Christian leaders to serve us indirectly. They point us to Jesus--they are not Jesus themselves. Christian leaders can present truth, and they can misrepresent the truth--we need to be cautious or careful. Our truth needs to be grounded in our own personal experience with God. Otherwise, we're simply taking somebody else's word for something.

At least most who say they are assured will admit to that possibility because they disagree with the other guy who also says he is assured. After all, he got his claimed rational powers from God but those powers lead him elsewhere than they led you. Someone's not right. How are you assured that your assurance is not a false assurance? Or is it just his assurance that is false?

We are all capable of pride and error. The wise person accepts correction. That's what we read in the Wisdom Literature.

OK then. God gave YOU everything you need. And that other guy you disagree with, God obviously did not give him what he needed. Hmmm.

I have limits to my understanding. I muddle on mostly. I am in awe of your rational powers.

I'm not your enemy. Why all the sarcasm? Is it wrong to take seriously God's commandment to "have no other gods?" We can't make gods of our own church leaders. Sometimes they can be great guides in our spiritual walk. Sometimes they can misrepresent truth.

It is on us to be responsible. If you attack those like me who simply want to be responsible you are making a choice.

 

[Servus]

The discontents initiated new denominations in the case of Protestants, and the Orthodox separated for a myriad of political, linguistic, and social reasons. However, the theological basis for this separation, in my view, remains relatively insubstantial.

The theological view differences in most Protestant denominations are relatively insignificant as well. I have no problem with attending the services of most denominations. They all have the same foundational beliefs and teaching listed in their statements of faith. Sure there are some oddball offshoots, but they're considered unorthodox, heretical, or a cult by the bulk of Protestantism. Unfortunately some Protestant churches that had sound foundational doctrine have gone woke and promote lgbt, but so do some Catholic parishes.

 

[Servus]

Could we say that Unitarianism is a demonic teaching, cos it is not of Christ?

A doctrine of demons (1 Tim 4:1). Counterfeit Christianity.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The theological view differences in most Protestant denominations are relatively insignificant as well. I have no problem with attending the services of most denominations. They all have the same foundational beliefs and teaching listed in their statements of faith. Sure there are some oddball offshoots, but they're considered unorthodox, heretical, or a cult by the bulk of Protestantism. Unfortunately some Protestant churches that had sound foundational doctrine have gone woke and promote lgbt, but so do some Catholic parishes.

LGBTIQ+ stuff is a whole different topic which I do not want to introduce into this thread.

 

[Always in His Presence]

When Catholics have good-faith disagreements, they typically do not divide the church into denominations. In contrast, Protestantism has often seen the creation of new denominations following doctrinal disputes.

Why then are the Roman Catholic Churches loosing member and the Protestant churches growing?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why then are the Roman Catholic Churches loosing member and the Protestant churches growing?

Why do Protestants lose people to atheism and Islam? I am sure that you'll think of reasons.

 

[RandyPNW]

The theological view differences in most Protestant denominations are relatively insignificant as well. I have no problem with attending the services of most denominations. They all have the same foundational beliefs and teaching listed in their statements of faith. Sure there are some oddball offshoots, but they're considered unorthodox, heretical, or a cult by the bulk of Protestantism. Unfortunately some Protestant churches that had sound foundational doctrine have gone woke and promote lgbt, but so do some Catholic parishes.

The problem is not just theological--all the churches subscribe to the same creeds generally. The worst problem is Phariseeism, which I define as speaking the truth but not living the truth. I can't go into just "any church" because some churches are coated with conservative theology but underneath are screaming liberals.

I have the same problem with the Catholic Church. It claims to be non-sectarian, as Paul calls us to be. But then it does the exact opposite by claiming it is the only organizational autority that legitimately represents united Christianity. Last I read the Bible, Jesus was the head of the Church--not the Pope.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The problem is not just theological--all the churches subscribe to the same creeds generally. The worst problem is Phariseeism, which I define as speaking the truth but not living the truth. I can't go into just "any church" because some churches are coated with conservative theology but underneath are screaming liberals.

I have the same problem with the Catholic Church. It claims to be non-sectarian, as Paul calls us to be. But then it does the exact opposite by claiming it is the only organizational autority that legitimately represents united Christianity. Last I read the Bible, Jesus was the head of the Church--not the Pope.

It seems unusual for someone to take issue with the Catholic Church if they are not Catholic. Similarly, I have no issue with Protestant churches as I am not Protestant and do not concern myself with internal Protestant disputes or the conservative and liberal divisions within that context.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Why do Protestants lose people to atheism and Islam? I am sure that you'll think of reasons.

Protestant denominations are growing, Roman Catholic Churches are shrinking to the point of hundreds of them closing this year alone.

You said “When Catholics have good-faith disagreements, they typically do not divide the church into denominations”

Why then are hundreds of churches closing?