My second visit to the Salvation Army Church questions.

[SonOfThunder]

The church I go to is about 70 strong, this was my second visit after a few months in the baptist church and my whole life before then as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.


The music this week was very free and different from what I am used to, and very different from the week before. I noticed they were using 'Hillsong' music with projected words on a screen and three people singing up the front through microphones. It got emotional for many and a couple were dancing in the aisle to the beat of the music. Is this a normal way of worship for Salvation Army?
At the previous places we had song books and simple music and no-one up on the stage.

Also, I wondered if I can ask about communion and membership?

I was refused communion at he Baptist church as I wasn't a member of that church. What rules do Salvation Army have on taking communion please. I dont want to be shocked when it happens.


James

 

[Abiel]

We don't take communion in our meetings. Membership is through adherancy and soldiership and just being there every week. These are big issues though- please make an approach to the leaders and get them to explain these to you.

As for 'is this the normal way to worship in the SA'. Every Corps is different. It is normal where you were- it would be thought odd at a more traditional Corps.

 

[something from the fridge]

we did communion at easter once, with grape juice though!!! If it does occur, it is on the basis that it is representing and is a process for reminding us of what happened.

As for dancing, the closest we get to that is marching around the hall with the flag to the song "we are marching"

 

[InTheFlame]

(my experience only, so I could be wrong in regards to your church or area)

Some salvation army churches in Australia do have communion with grape juice and bread. It's often seen more as a 'communion with each other' type of thing more than 'communion with God' thing... if that makes sense? You probably wouldn't be refused communion if it does occur.

Worship -
- Hillsong music is fairly common, so is the use of a projector
- many salvation army churches, I've noticed, encourage people to take the message of a service to heart, and don't look badly on relatively private displays of emotion... ie. quiet crying, dancing in aisle... things that don't inconvenience others. That said, loud sobbing probably wouldn't get dirty looks... just an overabundance of prayer assistants!
- the people up on stage are there to lead the singing (a lot of people seem to be happier to sing when there's someone to follow), and sometimes give a very short message that they think God wants them to share... generally to do with worship (although now I think about it, we're supposed to worship with our whole lives, so that's a pretty broad topic!)

Hope that helps?

(I'm in Brisbane, btw)

 

[SonOfThunder]

Thankyou for answering with such detailed help.

I'm not sure where I should be since I left the only religion I ever knew.

The one principle I am trying to follow is 'truth' the little things like people within a church and what they do or dont do are secondary. I really should have spoken to the pastor I had at the Baptist church about some things but didn't.

Giving up all churches is high on my list at the moment as it all seems too hard to sort out. I do love Jehovah God and sometimes wonder if anyone has the whole 'truth'? Has man mixed up His word? and how does a person possibly sort it all out?

thankyou again for replying

James

 

[Abiel]

I think for Salvos the 'truth' is that God called them into the SA to proclaim the gospel and serve suffering humanity.

As for 'truth' as in the nitty gritty of Christian truth it is very important. It seems to me that you have a long journey to go on, and you should give yourself the time and space to make it, with out getting too worried about it. Be assured that in a normal Army setting, you will recieve sound biblical teaching. If you need to go into more depth, that will be facillitated too. But please dont set out looking for hard and fast absolutes before you settle in to a church community, because it can take a very long time to sort it all out in your head.
In the end we christians are all travellers, trying to help each other along the way.

 

[InTheFlame]

SoT...

It must be really tough at the moment, not to mention confusing. Maybe an alpha course would help? (Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you know and you're light-years ahead of me here!) Alpha courses run through the 'basics' of christianity - who Jesus was, why he died, why he was resurrected, how he 'gave us his spirit' (the Holy Spirit), etc. I think there are quite a few Salvo churches running them around Australia. Maybe ask the officers at your church or PM me with your location and I'll see if I can find out for you.

If an alpha course isn't an answer, maybe some reading about christianity? My favourite two authors are CS Lewis and Max Lucado. You can read some of Max's stuff at www.maxlucado.com . Mere Christianity is one of CS Lewis' most famous works (although his fiction is a lot more popular!)... you can probably find it fairly cheap in 2nd hand bookshops and there's a study guide here (I don't know how good the study is)

 

[Warren Peace]

The church I go to is about 70 strong, this was my second visit after a few months in the baptist church and my whole life before then as one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

The music this week was very free and different from what I am used to, and very different from the week before. I noticed they were using 'Hillsong' music with projected words on a screen and three people singing up the front through microphones. It got emotional for many and a couple were dancing in the aisle to the beat of the music. Is this a normal way of worship for Salvation Army?
At the previous places we had song books and simple music and no-one up on the stage.

Also, I wondered if I can ask about communion and membership?

I was refused communion at he Baptist church as I wasn't a member of that church. What rules do Salvation Army have on taking communion please. I dont want to be shocked when it happens.

I love it when people ask lots of questions!

SonOfThunder my brother, I will guide you with answers from a Canadian Salvation Army perspective:

There are different corps with soldiers and adherents from different backgrounds, so one corps will have more modern music that you can find at many churches and on CD's that you can buy in stores, other use the old Salvation Army songbook, which have some very rare gems. Most songs from the songbook (there are over 1,000) will have a marching band feel to them.

Dancing is not generally done at most corps, but hey when the Holy Spirit is in the house, it's all good (to me that is). Some more traditional Sally Ann corps kind of frown on dancing... it could lead to sexual promiscuity, and in some ways I agree, but mature people generally know the difference.

Communion is not done in Sally Ann corps. It was done away with many years ago because a lot of local folk would come to church just for the drink(s) and then leave. There are many ways to remember the body and the blood of Jesus besides drinking wine...

Sorry to hear that you were refused communion for any reason but what is outlined in scripture. I have done communion twice at a Bretheren church. Jesus did not say you have to be a member anywhere to do communion, but your heart must be pure and clear of ill feelings toward other Christians. Some churches go too far and end up leading people away from God in their elitist ways.

There are two kinds of members: Soldiers and adherents. Go to www.salvationist.org or www.salvationarmy.org and there should be lots of literature. If you are still in need of guidance, please feel free to send me a private message or post a request for more assistance here and I'll be glad to help you.

Blessings unto you in your search for the truth...

 

[SonOfThunder]

I love it when people ask lots of questions!

SonOfThunder my brother, I will guide you with answers from a Canadian Salvation Army perspective:

There are different corps with soldiers and adherents from different backgrounds, so one corps will have more modern music that you can find at many churches and on CD's that you can buy in stores, other use the old Salvation Army songbook, which have some very rare gems. Most songs from the songbook (there are over 1,000) will have a marching band feel to them.

Dancing is not generally done at most corps, but hey when the Holy Spirit is in the house, it's all good (to me that is). Some more traditional Sally Ann corps kind of frown on dancing... it could lead to sexual promiscuity, and in some ways I agree, but mature people generally know the difference.

Communion is not done in Sally Ann corps. It was done away with many years ago because a lot of local folk would come to church just for the drink(s) and then leave. There are many ways to remember the body and the blood of Jesus besides drinking wine...

Sorry to hear that you were refused communion for any reason but what is outlined in scripture. I have done communion twice at a Bretheren church. Jesus did not say you have to be a member anywhere to do communion, but your heart must be pure and clear of ill feelings toward other Christians. Some churches go too far and end up leading people away from God in their elitist ways.

There are two kinds of members: Soldiers and adherents. Go to www.salvationist.org or www.salvationarmy.org and there should be lots of literature. If you are still in need of guidance, please feel free to send me a private message or post a request for more assistance here and I'll be glad to help you.

Blessings unto you in your search for the truth...

Thankyou for replying, I did have a look at the sites you gave me, it is useful to know what the beliefs are.

I want to go back to communion and respond as I found your comment about people turning up to drink amazing. When I was growing up the offering of the 'emblem' (as it is known within the Jehovah's Witness Org.) was done once a year only on Memorial day. Only those of the 144,000 would take it and all my life I saw no-one take it at all. This troubled me the last Memorial Day I attended so I studied it out and came to the conclusion that it was offered to people in the first century church as some of them were warned against it becoming a feast rather than the intent it was to be taken with.
The Bible is very clear on warnings and also on how a believer should be in order to take it.

It interests me that a church can drop this because a few members of public viewed it differently.
At the Baptist church I went to for a while they would read from the Bible and give very clear instruction on the warnings of taking it inappropriately. It seems they were also concerned about people taking it when they dont know if they are Christian even and took steps to ensure that only members took it. But stopping it altogether is interesting. It even bothers me a little. why?
Scripture says Jesus said to do this in rememberance of Him. The instructions are clear and as a teacher or a leader I feel it is his role to instruct the congregation as to the manner of how it is to be taken. The teachers/leaders do not know the heart of those they stand before. They also don't know for certain their Spiritual standing but our Great God does.

To date I have not had communion ever, becasue man has set rules or given (in my case with Jehovah's Witnesses) false teaching.

With the comments on different congregations and dance and music, I thank you for explaining. This is an issue I chose not to upset me as it is not central (at this stage) to eternal life for me or indeed my own salvation.

In the web sites you showed me I wondered if you can explain about baptism?

I have been baptised when I was 13, I'm not sure if any mainstream religion accepts my baptism. What happens with this please.

James

 

[elm0]

To date I have not had communion ever, becasue man has set rules or given (in my case with Jehovah's Witnesses) false teaching.

SoT, communion is something you can do by yourself at home, it does not require a group of people, or even someone with great Bible knowledge. All you need is some bread and wine, or substitutes. I've had communion before with a few friends while camping, and we used Weet-Bix and water, it's not what you're eating and drinking that are the important thing in communion.

You are right, Jesus said to do this in rememberance of Him, so as long as you are focussing on Jesus and remembering what He has done for you, that is communion, whether you are alone or surrounded by people, whether you're using bread and wine or something else. I do not believe that it is the actions of eating the bread and drinking the wine which are important, but the attitude, the thoughts, the praise given to Jesus while partaking.


I hope this makes sense.

 

[Warren Peace]

Thankyou for replying, I did have a look at the sites you gave me, it is useful to know what the beliefs are.

Always a pleasure to help a brother...

I want to go back to communion and respond as I found your comment about people turning up to drink amazing. When I was growing up the offering of the 'emblem' (as it is known within the Jehovah's Witness Org.) was done once a year only on Memorial day. Only those of the 144,000 would take it and all my life I saw no-one take it at all.

Are you refering to the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelations? If this is the case, then I hasten to say that this was not Jesus' intention. I am a Messianic Jew, and therefore supposedly considered one of the 144,000. However, I don't recall Jesus ever saying that only Jews were to partake in communion.

It interests me that a church can drop this because a few members of public viewed it differently.

It's not a fair statement to say that the Salvation Army dropped communion from Sunday services because of "a few members...". It is more fair to say that because the temptation exists that people would come for the drink and not for the ritual that it was deemed contrary to the Salvation Army doctrine, which supports the complete elimination of all addictive drugs and intoxicating drink. The Salvation Army does not frown on communion, after all it was an act that Jesus Himself partook in. However, there are many other ways to remember the body and the blood of Christ apart from communion, and so the Salvation Army chooses to use other forms of remembrance.

At the Baptist church I went to for a while they would read from the Bible and give very clear instruction on the warnings of taking it inappropriately. It seems they were also concerned about people taking it when they dont know if they are Christian even and took steps to ensure that only members took it. But stopping it altogether is interesting. It even bothers me a little. why?

The only thing that I disagree with is the church allowing some individuals to partake and not others. At a Bretheren church that I occasionally attend, they publish the three criteria for receiving communion in the bulletin every Sunday morning, and they ask that those who do not agree with all three criteria are respectfully asked not to partake. When I held ill will towards another Christian, I respectfully bowed out of partaking as this was one of the three criteria. But for someone to tell me that I cannot take part because of their opinion of what is in my heart is accusatory (in my honest opinion), and therefore not a Christian approach.

... In the web sites you showed me I wondered if you can explain about baptism? I have been baptised when I was 13, I'm not sure if any mainstream religion accepts my baptism. What happens with this please.

It is my belief (not sure if the Salvation Army agrees) that baptism is only necessary for a child who is not able to make the decision to accept or reject Christ reasonably. Christ baptized a man on the cross moments before His death without water. Therefore, water is apparently not necessary according to Christ Himself. Repenting your sins and accepting Christ as Lord with your lips is all you need. Baptism (or as us Sally Ann folk call it "dedication") is only so that those who are not able to make that decision because they are too young will still go to heaven. At the time the child is able to make the decision himself/herself "reasonably", then they choose salvation for themselves, thus the baptism is no longer valid.

I hope you agree that a person who grows up to denounce God will not go to heaven just because he/she was baptized as a child.

Blessings...

 

[SonOfThunder]

Always a pleasure to help a brother...


Are you refering to the 144,000 Jews mentioned in Revelations? If this is the case, then I hasten to say that this was not Jesus' intention. I am a Messianic Jew, and therefore supposedly considered one of the 144,000. However, I don't recall Jesus ever saying that only Jews were to partake in communion.

Yes, it is the 144,000 mentioned in Revelations. I agree that Jesus did not say it was reserved for them only. This is one area I have studied out and believe that taking communion is following the example Jesus gave us to follow to remember Him. Jesus knew what it was like to be fully man, He experienced everything man does (grief, weeping, anger, happiness, hunger etc.) and I think he knew that we need on occasions to have something like this to focus our minds and follow a ritual as man loves to do.

It's not a fair statement to say that the Salvation Army dropped communion from Sunday services because of "a few members...". It is more fair to say that because the temptation exists that people would come for the drink and not for the ritual that it was deemed contrary to the Salvation Army doctrine, which supports the complete elimination of all addictive drugs and intoxicating drink. The Salvation Army does not frown on communion, after all it was an act that Jesus Himself partook in. However, there are many other ways to remember the body and the blood of Christ apart from communion, and so the Salvation Army chooses to use other forms of remembrance.

There is indeed a lot of ways to remember Christ. Abstaining from any form of intoxicating drink is also important to me personally. I often wonder about Jesus' first miracle of turning water to wine in relation to this. I do know that we are to be in control of our minds and any form or drink can have the potential to allow our minds to wander or be out of control. This is why I chose not to drink it.

In relation to the Salvavtion Army stopping what Jesus did with His disciples and asked us all as believers to do in rememberance of Him is what bothers me. Surely grape juice could have been introduced, how do you view the Scriptures about the water being turned into wine? was it alcoholic?

The only thing that I disagree with is the church allowing some individuals to partake and not others. At a Bretheren church that I occasionally attend, they publish the three criteria for receiving communion in the bulletin every Sunday morning, and they ask that those who do not agree with all three criteria are respectfully asked not to partake. When I held ill will towards another Christian, I respectfully bowed out of partaking as this was one of the three criteria. But for someone to tell me that I cannot take part because of their opinion of what is in my heart is accusatory (in my honest opinion), and therefore not a Christian approach.

When I was to take communion for the first time and saw it pass me by, I also felt it was unfair for man to judge me. I agree that you have to have a right heart attitude to take it. I guess this comes back to man LORDING it over what they believe Scripture says. I pray that God will help anyone in the position of making these decisions. It's hard for any of us to sift 'truth' from all the differencs and beliefs.

It is my belief (not sure if the Salvation Army agrees) that baptism is only necessary for a child who is not able to make the decision to accept or reject Christ reasonably. Christ baptized a man on the cross moments before His death without water. Therefore, water is apparently not necessary according to Christ Himself. Repenting your sins and accepting Christ as Lord with your lips is all you need. Baptism (or as us Sally Ann folk call it "dedication") is only so that those who are not able to make that decision because they are too young will still go to heaven. At the time the child is able to make the decision himself/herself "reasonably", then they choose salvation for themselves, thus the baptism is no longer valid.

WOW!!! Thankyou for replying. I had no idea this was the belief of the Salvation Army.
Infant Baptism is not practiced within The Jehovah's Witnesses. The reason is that every child is covered by Jehovah until the age of belief (that changes with each child/teen), also only adults were baptised in The Bible. It is an active/outward show of the inner change/belief. It is a commandment and was also done by Jesus Himself. I was 13 when I was Baptised, my brother was 15. We got to a stage of inner conviction and wanted everyone to know that we were following what The Bible teaches.

As far as the man that was Crucified next to Jesus. I don't see any reference to Baptism when Jesus spoke to that man.
Mat 27:38
Mark 15:27
John 19:16

but Luke covers it well

[bible]luke23:39-43[/bible]

Luke 23:39-43
Jesus did say that he would be with Him in paradise. This only indicates to me that if Baptism by water cannot be followed after an inner conviction of belief that this will not stop the path of eternal life.

I hope you agree that a person who grows up to denounce God will not go to heaven just because he/she was baptized as a child.

Blessings...

I have never heard of a child being baptised until now. At this stage in my studies I do believe we are not fully secure if we follow a path of flesh and turning our backs on God totally. The Bible states to endure to the end. I pray often That the Holy Spirit will promp me often so that I will never follow after things that God does not approve of. It's ongoing. The love that Jesus gave to me (as an individual) is an amazing act of Grace and His mercy I love.

James