My Raisin Challenge

AV1611VET · Jan 11, 2017

Jimmy D said:
Post count goes up.

'Likes' ratio goes down.

Sometimes you have to cut off a finger to save a hand, don't you?

CLAVDIVS · Jan 11, 2017

Hi

Interesting. At first glance my answer is 'no deception' because He did what he said He did.

But Loudmouth's response has some force. The miraculous, fiat creation of a raisin does not entail that it will have the subtle but measurable signs of something that actually grew and actually aged.

I would be inclined to trust a detailed chemical analysis of the raisin, and believe it really grew/aged, and I would distrust the note, which could more easily be faked. Of course, in this scenario, I would be wrong.

AV1611VET · Jan 11, 2017

CLAVDIVS said:
Hi

Interesting. At first glance my answer is 'no deception' because He did what he said He did.

But Loudmouth's response has some force. The miraculous, fiat creation of a raisin does not entail that it will have the subtle but measurable signs of something that actually grew and actually aged.

I would be inclined to trust a detailed chemical analysis of the raisin, and believe it really grew/aged, and I would distrust the note, which could more easily be faked. Of course, in this scenario, I would be wrong.

You're honesty is refreshing.

Bugeyedcreepy · Jan 11, 2017

CLAVDIVS said:
I would be inclined to trust a detailed chemical analysis of the raisin, and believe it really grew/aged, and I would distrust the note, which could more easily be faked. Of course, in this scenario, I would be wrong.

Unfortunately, that's all the information and evidence we have on hand and can test. As wrong as it might be in this specific posited scenario, we have no reason to distrust the evidence we observe in the reald world under normal circumstances.

For the rest of us who haven't adopted a preconceived religious based position before looking at the evidence, of course this is the only outcome. It'd be interesting to hear what a Muslim would say, a Jew, Hindu and Bhuddist too for that matter... either it was their Gods or they'll follow the evidence. I can hear AV now saying "they're wrong because, Jesus, etc." but they'll all be saying exactly the same thing about Christianity.

These challenges are a never ending stream of pointless suppositions about scenarios that I'm sure aren't even grounded in his own version of Christianity. I could ask pointless questions too like "Voltron appears out of nowhere one day to wreak havoc all over Japan... What if Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris and Laurence Krauss were chosen to be the Power Rangers, could they beat Voltron?" - it just isn't going to go anywhere worth discussing because it's make believe and the evidence available for it is a big fat "BLANK". My challenge I'm sure makes as much sense to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Bhuddists equally as AV's challenge looks to Atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Bhuddists.

The only thing that should be considered in this reality are observations and evidence that is verifiable to everyone in this one and only reality we share, regardless the world view you want to believe in at home.

KWCrazy · Jan 11, 2017

AV1611VET said:
I might take this challenge to church Sunday and ask the kids in the nursery and see if they can answer it.

They'd get it right.

KWCrazy · Jan 11, 2017

Split Rock said:
Given that the box says, "Made in China" on it, is HE being deceptive?

You didn't say he made the box, only the contents.

KWCrazy · Jan 11, 2017

CLAVDIVS said:
The miraculous, fiat creation of a raisin does not entail that it will have the subtle but measurable signs of something that actually grew and actually aged.

Why not? The earth does? It had to be a mature planet to be able to sustain life. That is, after all, the point of this. The creation, be it raisin or the earth, was created as it needed to be. Scientists would find evidence of age in the raisin and conclude that the note was a fake, just as they find evidence of age in the earth and conclude that the Scriptures are wrong.

AV1611VET · Jan 11, 2017

KWCrazy said:
They'd get it right.

Ya -- they'd probably eat it and enjoy it; whereas scientists would whisk it away to do chemical analyses on it and Darwin-knows-what and end up concluding:

It's a raisin.

Then they would look around at each other, scratch their heads and say, "What was the challenge again?"

AirPo · Jan 11, 2017

AV1611VET said:
God creates a raisin ex materia, along with a note that the raisin was spoken into existence instantly.

Given that a raisin is an aged grape, is He being deceptive?

Yes, obviously.

AV1611VET · Jan 11, 2017

AirPo said:
Yes, obviously.

I sincerely believe you guys think that way.

AirPo · Jan 11, 2017

My bad. I tend to look at the number of replies, not the original post date.

HitchSlap · Jan 11, 2017

AV1611VET said:
God creates a raisin ex materia, along with a note that the raisin was spoken into existence instantly.

Given that a raisin is an aged grape, is He being deceptive?

Sure. Telling people a raisin is actually a grape, is deceptive, by definition.

Loudmouth · Jan 11, 2017

AV1611VET said:
God creates a raisin ex materia, along with a note that the raisin was spoken into existence instantly.

Given that a raisin is an aged grape, is He being deceptive?

If the raisin has scars from pest attacks that the young grape never suffered, then God is being deceptive.

The Earth, by comparison, has scars from past events. If God faked those scars to make it look like these events happened, then God is being deceptive.

How many more of these challenges do we need to demolish before you see the common thread between them?

Loudmouth · Jan 11, 2017

KWCrazy said:
Why not? The earth does? It had to be a mature planet to be able to sustain life.

Why would rocks need a specific ratio of U/Pb, K/Ar, and Rb/Sr in order to sustain life?

Why would the Earth need buried impact craters from massive meteors in order to support life?

Why would the Earth need lake varves containing insect and leaf debris which have less and less 14C as you move down through the varves?

Why would rocks need uranium radiohalos in order to support life on the planet?

Your claims make zero sense.

CLAVDIVS · Jan 11, 2017

Hi KWCrazy

KWCrazy said:
CLAVDIVS said:

The miraculous, fiat creation of a raisin does not entail that it will have the subtle but measurable signs of something that actually grew and actually aged.

Click to expand...

Why not? The earth does? It had to be a mature planet to be able to sustain life. That is, after all, the point of this. The creation, be it raisin or the earth, was created as it needed to be. Scientists would find evidence of age in the raisin and conclude that the note was a fake, just as they find evidence of age in the earth and conclude that the Scriptures are wrong.

"Entail" means "necessarily requires".

As Loudmouth pointed out, it is not necessarily required that a miraculously created raisin have the exact same ratio of nuclides of carbon as the earth's atmosphere. It could have any ratio of carbon nuclides and still look to the naked eye exactly like a grown/aged raisin, and be perfectly nutritious.

However, a raisin actually grown and aged on earth must necessarily have the exact same ratio of carbon nuclides as the earth's atmosphere.

So the question is, why would God choose to create the raisin with the exact same chemical composition as a non-created one, when this is not actually necessary? It does seem slightly deceptive because we would reasonably expect to be able to tell the difference between a created raisin and a grown one on detailed examination of the chemistry. That's why I for one would conclude the note was false if the raisin had the same chemistry as a grown/aged raisin, just on the basis of reasonable probabilities and expectations.

Similarly, why would God create the earth with e.g. the exact chemistry in the ice layers at the poles to make it look like the earth is hundreds of thousands of years old, when such is not actually necessary for a functioning earth?

Kylie · Jan 11, 2017

AV1611VET said:
I take it you can't answer my challenge because your science is getting in the way?

I might take this challenge to church Sunday and ask the kids in the nursery and see if they can answer it.

I think he answered it quite well.

Kylie · Jan 11, 2017

AV1611VET said:
Ya -- they'd probably eat it and enjoy it; whereas scientists would whisk it away to do chemical analyses on it and Darwin-knows-what and end up concluding:

It's a raisin.

Then they would look around at each other, scratch their heads and say, "What was the challenge again?"

The best way to answer one of your challenges is to not think about it and ignore it?

Bungle_Bear · Jan 12, 2017

AV1611VET said:
God creates a raisin ex materia, along with a note that the raisin was spoken into existence instantly.

Given that a raisin is an aged grape, is He being deceptive?

What, exactly, does the note say? Does it admit to duplicity? Until you tell us that how can we know if he's being deceptive?

Does the raisin appear to have the same age as this thread?

TLK Valentine · Jan 12, 2017

AV1611VET said:
God creates a raisin ex materia, along with a note that the raisin was spoken into existence instantly.

Given that a raisin is an aged grape, is He being deceptive?

Yes, but since this is God we're talking about, it would be such a perfect deception that there'd be literally no way to detect it.

AV1611VET · Jan 12, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
Yes, but since this is God we're talking about, it would be such a perfect deception that there'd be literally no way to detect it.

Interesting how a "deceptor" can leave documentation as to what he did, and educates would consider it "deception."

Ted Bundy should have put in writing what he did, where he did it, when he did it, what order he did it in, why he did it, how long it took him to do it, why it took him that long, and who the eyewitnesses were ... he'd be alive and well today.

My Raisin Challenge

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