When I say our objective while here on earth is to get to know God, I am meaning in the same sense you would get to know someone you love. But, this only becomes a possibility after salvation. When you say "Our objective while we are here is to accept God's free gift," I totally agree, but is not the point of salvation, so you can get to know God?
“Knowledge” can be programmed into a person. Adam knew how to walk and talk which was programmed into Adam. In fact, since God was responsible for parenting (programming) Adam to adult hood, Adam would have the greatest knowledge a person could have (what would God keep from Adam besides the knowledge of good and evil which Adam did not need at the time?).
Knowledge can puff up a person, increase their self-reliance and reduce their reliance on others (including God).
This messed up world is not the best place to learn about God, but it is the very best place for willing individuals to humbly accept God’s charity/Love in the form of forgiveness and grow that Love with use. The sinner can still hate his/her enemy God, yet be willing to humbly accept pure undeserved charity from the enemy they hate (this is like most soldiers who surrender to their enemy). That willingness allow God to shower them with gifts.
If you lack the knowledge of good and evil, where is freewill? Without having a reference point from which to distinguish good, is it possible to know God who is all good? It seems to me, without this knowledge it would be impossible to know God. Before the fall, neither Adam or Eve could've said that God is good and the serpent is evil since they both lacked this knowledge. If Eve could have recognized the serpent as being evil, it's highly unlikely she would have ever listed to it.
Freewill, in the biblical sense, has always been man's freedom to deny God. The freedom for the created to deny its creator. So logically, until man gained the knowledge of good and evil, which they probably never would have, without the serpent interfering, the freedom to deny God was not possible. If there is no freedom to deny God, then likewise, there is no freedom to choose God.
The “free will” was in obeying or not obeying the one rule God gave them, which is not a choice between good and evil, but more like a right and wrong free will choice. It might be wrong in some situations to ride your bike in the street, but it is not evil. “If you Love me, you will obey me”, so the Love comes first and this is Godly type Love, we are talking about.
We need to be in the image of God (having free will) to Love like God Loves, which I described in my last post. Adam and Eve in theory could have chosen of their own free will to accept God’s Love as pure undeserved charity, but it is extremely hard for anyone, let alone someone who has done nothing wrong, to humble themselves to the point of accepting charity. This in part has to do with our God given and needed survival-instinct, which leads to: self -awareness, self-esteem, self-reliance, selfishness and pride.
You are right. Sin is not the problem. The problem is we are dead spiritually leaving us separated from God. We don't need to accept forgiveness, because we already have forgiveness. Forgiveness is not the free gift and neither is it salvation.
Salvation is accepting the free gift of new spiritual life. Forgiveness was necessary beforehand so that it would be possible to receive new spiritual life and never lose it, John 3:16. Paul tells us in 1Cor 15:17 that even though Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins, salvation is found in the resurrection, where new spiritual life is found. We are not asked to believe in the Jesus that died for sins, even though this is what's preached time and time again. We are asked to believe in the Jesus that was resurrected from the dead.
You say: “The problem is we are dead spiritually leaving us separated from God.” Adam and Eve prior to sinning were not dead Spiritually nor separated from God, but they still had the same problem (fulfilling their earthly objective) we all face. They still had to obtain Godly type Love, which is not instinctive nor can it be forced into them. God is willing and wanting to shower us with gifts (including: Love, heaven, new life, purpose, fellowship with Him and others, indwelling Holy Spirit), but are we willing to accept them as gifts.
Had Adam and Eve never sinned, then yes, I totally agree, they could have lived forever providing they ate from the tree of life. They wouldn't have known good or evil, and therefore couldn't know God, but they could have pointlessly lived forever. Alternatively, they could've eaten from the tree of life after they sinned and also lived forever Gen 3:22.
Right from creation, death has always been a natural part of human existence, not a result of sin, hence, the tree of life. Spiritual death, however, was not a natural part of human existence.
Addressed above.
You speak much on our need for God's love (which I agree), but that it is found in accepting his forgiveness. If sin brought spiritual death into the world and this death resulted in us being separated from God, how is God simply forgiving our sins love? Okay, he forgave me my sins, great! But I'm still dead and separated from him. Is that the extent of his love? Read John 3:16 again. God's love is associated with him giving us everlasting life. Yes, him forgiving our sins was certainly a part of that, but it definitely isn't the fulfillment of his love.
First off: While we were sinners and enemies of God, we were only just willing to humbly accept pure charity (Love, mercy, grace, forgiveness) from our enemy, but our enemy God will shower us with all kinds of gifts and not just forgiveness, which we in accepting forgiveness as a gift will also accept. This includes being made alive.
Now, I did not create this idea, but Jesus identified to us this fact, in Luke 7: He that is forgiven much Loves much! Are you having a hard time seeing how truly unbelievably huge of a debt our sin created and thus how huge this Love which we receive has to be?
God’s Love is seen and experienced in His forgiving us (this is huge) and thus we automatically receive the gift of a huge Godly type Love.
God is Love, so if we have even a little part of this Love we become like God and can grow this Love with use.
God banishing man from having access to the tree of life isn't so man can die, and hopefully repent at the fear of death. It was so that man wouldn't live forever in a state of separation from God. Whether you commit one sin or 40,000 sins, you are already spiritually dead. Him forgiving these sins doesn't change that fact. It just means that should you choose to accept the free gift of salvation, that is new life, there is now no longer any possibility of ever losing it.
You are right to say: “Him forgiving these sins doesn't change that fact.” It is our humble acceptance of this unbelievable huge debt of sin being forgiven and thus His providing us with this charitable gift of a matching Love, which is hugely significant. You are not wanting to join your enemy (have life with Him) until you Love Him, which comes after humbly accepting His Love.
In Romans Paul says he is not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save those who believe. In 1 Corinthians Paul explains this Gospel as being the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Christ crucified is only part of the story and was a necessity before salvation could even be offered. Just as Jesus' death and his resurrection are two uniquely separated events, so too are the forgiveness of sins and salvation. They are not one in the same. This is a major theological error being continually preached in our churches, that to be forgiven is to be saved.
I have no problem with you separating God’s forgiveness and salvation. As forgiven sinners we do not deserve salvation.
Jesus said before He died, “It is finished”, so His actual death and transition to paradise, come after what was finished with the torture humiliation and murder. I would say the atonement sacrifice was completed while Jesus was still alive on the cross. How do you explain what was finished?
The world doesn't hate us because of Jesus. Most people today have no idea who Jesus even is. They hate us because we go around preaching, that because we're Christians, we're forgiven and they aren't. When in reality, everyone has already been forgiven, they just aren't saved. That's because salvation isn't found in getting your sins forgiven. Having our sins already forgiven leaves mankind free to come to God for salvation regardless of anything he's done or not done, and regardless of how bad or undeserving he may be feeling. Jesus, through his death, has made the path to salvation clear and available for everyone.
This gets us into a lengthy discussion of Matt. 18, which I can do. But prior to that we have, Jesus pray to God on the cross: “Forgive them they know not what they do.” So would God answer Christ’s pray with: “I will”? We than have the issue of Peter later tell the same group of people, they are guilty of crucifying the Messiah, so did God not forgive them?
I use the parable in Matt. 18 extensively as a proof text to show how forgiveness, Love, atonement, grace, and mercy are not one-sided actions but require action on both the giver and receiver to complete the transaction.
This parable is not explained well by every commentary I’ve read.
Before going into this parable, you need to get the context which may not be obvious;
Matt. 18: 21-35
Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).
I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly, a strait forward answer, but Jesus’ answer would produce an immediate follow-up question in the mines of the hearers, yet the apostles would be slow to ask Jesus, so what is on their hearts which? This parable is the follow-up answer to the question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).
If I was there at this time, when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77, I would think: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?”
Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.
Here are some questions I have asked in the past:
The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.
The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, is it referring to all other humans or just other Christian brothers?)
Here is what we might want to further discuss on Matt. 18:
The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept being forgiven as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?
The servant is asked: “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back and the Master states this and the servant would know this also from going through this amount of money, but what would the Master be tell the world about this servant if he gave him more time? Could the servant take pride in telling others: “The Master gave me more time to pay the whole debt back”?
In management 101 they tell us not to give the person a raise at the same time you give them a performance review, why? They come in wanting to hear what raise they got, and that is all they will hear and remember.
This parable might be a classic example of the person hearing what they wanted to hear. The servant came to the master wanting to hear, “I will give you more time to pay all the debt” while he did not even imagine hearing an unbelievable: “Your debt has been totally unconditionally forgiven”, so what did he hear?
If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love), (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love have been seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?
If a “unconditional forgiveness transaction” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?
God being Love would be the perfect forgiver, forgiving everyone of all their wrongs all the time, so how could anyone go to hell?
Is there any other debt the servant owes, since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?
Does the servant still owe the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?
In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?
Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?
Jesus gives us one requirement, we often leave out, and that is going to the person we tried to forgive when he did not accept the forgiveness as charity, and explain what he did wrong and why he still owes us. We may stop with just not loaning them our car again, since they still owe us for the last time.
These are teaching moments.
God forgives unconditionally, but we do have to accept it as unconditional, undeserved, unselfish pure charity to complete the transaction.
I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?
Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:
1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?
2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?
3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?
4. The wicked servant is a sinner?
5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?
6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?
7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?
8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?
If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?
