My questions

[OnceConvinced]

God doesn't put the 'cake' in bed with you. You put yourself in bed with the 'cake.'

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

seajoy

But God knew full well we would eat the cake. He knew the decision we would make before we were even born. There was no way we wouldn't eat the cake, because it was predetermined. He knew no warnings would make a difference. Yet he still wants to throw us into hell for sinning and not asking for forgiveness?

 

[OnceConvinced]

First I must correct whomever said this (sorry):

No worries. I've been busy over the last few days too. It's nearly 1am, so I'm trying to get as many replies in before I go to bed.

Paul states his 'body' does what his 'mind' doesn't want it to do. This speaks of the 'difficulty' we have as humans who have 'obtained knowledge' beyond our 'perfect' capability and 'purpose' as humans (back in that garden and partaking in the tree of knowledge).

This does not necessarily speak of a propensity toward 'sin' -- but the difficulties in the flesh (for example lusts for 'things,' ect. that feel good to the body or bring the 'flesh' comfort...but not the Spirit. I.e. like devouring a gallon of ice cream in two day --not really good for you...but it sure tastes good to the flesh...yet the 'mind' knows better.

Which does still suggest that at least some sin is part of human nature eg. lust and gluttony. As humans we have a lot against us and for many those things of the flesh will spell doom for them.

 

[OnceConvinced]

Would you prefer that God did not create things that were enjoyable?

Heck no. It's great that there are enjoyable things. But it seems a bit harsh to me that God should condemn us for doing these things and not asking for forgiveness, when he knew how much we want to do them, because it's in our nature, which he pretty much created. (hope I made sence with that big long sentence.... I should really go to bed).

If God removed all temptation from one's soul, then wouldn't 'free will' also be removed?

I can't really see why we can't have a free will without sin. Perhaps God could have created a mechanism that stops us from sinning, just like he created other defence mechanisms in our body that protect us from harm (like the ability to feel pain. - keeps us from damaging ourselves further, like if we place our hand on a hot element)

A big question that came to mind just recently is how wil God stop us from sinning in heaven? Will he take away our free will then? Will we be robots in heaven? He is going to obviously find some way to prevent sin there, but yet keep free will (if it is so important to him), so why didn't he do it when he created man originally?

If free will were removed...what would be the basis of choices in faith and to love?

Not quite sure what you mean by that question. But I'm sure if it works in heaven, then why not on earth?

 

[seajoy]

But God knew full well we would eat the cake. He knew the decision we would make before we were even born. There was no way we wouldn't eat the cake, because it was predetermined. He knew no warnings would make a difference. Yet he still wants to throw us into hell for sinning and not asking for forgiveness?

You seem to have made more of a statement than a question here.

What God wants is for "all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth." (from 1 Timothy 2:4)

The one who delights in having unbelievers in hell, is Satan. He is the father of lies, and thoroughly enjoys the mixed up way you are blaming God for all this.

This is not a game...it is reality. We, in our human condition cannot figure out God and His ways. Trying to outsmart God with conjecture, is not possible.

Would you want someone to love you because they were forced to (robot minds), or just love you because of who you are (God Almighty)?

You talk as if God doesn't help one stop sinning at all. Go back and re-read 1 Corinthians 10:13. This is a promise from Him.

 

[Key]

For those who ask for forgiveness that is fine. But what about those that don't? They get none. They suffer the consequences.

Ok, now, I fail to see the problem.

If I killed someone, and then I said “yep, I killed them, and I enjoyed it, do your worst” and I receive their (The Justice Systems) worst punishment, then law and the justice system is at fault?

Better yet, if I said “And when I get out, I plan to kill again” would they be at fault to do all within their power to prevent me from ever “Getting Out” ? Of course not.


The whole issue of forgiveness is the realization of wrong doing, with out this, one is then lead to believe they what they did was the correct thing to do. Not only have they done nothing wrong, but see no fault in doing it again.

So, if I break Gods laws, and follow in the path that this is the correct thing to do (IE: I do not seek Gods Forgiveness for my Actions), God would be at fault for not punishing me. Just as any judge, or law enforcement personal would.

But the cake is just way too tempting. And God new it will be. Remember he already knew before I was born I was going to eat the cake anyway.

Regardless of how tempting the cake is, or the fact that God knew, you did not know until you chose to eat it, and none of the other factors remove the fact that by eating the cake you did wrong.

I can't see how you can see it any other way. It is exactly what happens. We sin because that's our nature, not because it is easier.

We sin because it is easy and/or enjoyable.

We never “Must” sin.

To use an example: Every lie you tell, you must first formulate the lie, and then tell it. After which you enjoy the aftermath of what your lie has provided, finally ending with the perpetuating the lie.

Or to use the Cake: You first made the choice to eat it, then you picked it up, placed it in your mouth, and ate it. Enjoying the flavor and the full enjoyment of the cake at the time you were eating it. Possible even formulating a lie to tell to cover up that you ate the cake.

But all this is irrelevant.God put the snake pit there in the first place! He knew full well that person would play in it. He knew it before that person was even born. He knew that no matter what warnings he made that person would do it. This is the crux of the matter here and one of the main points I am trying to make.

Ok lets work here then. This is the Crux of the issue.

Every law is made with the knowledge of either two things. Someone has done this, or someone will do this. Every law, is based on the idea that someone will break this law. If no one would ever break this law, then the law would have no purpose to be made, and thus never exist.

So do we say, “The Establishment of the Law has made me a Criminal” it is the fault of the law that I am breaking it? Of course not.

But we do know, that if there was no Law, there would be no criminals, there would also be no order. Is this entrapment? Of course not.

Do we blame speeding limits for our speeding tickets, well some people would, but, are they wrong to do so? Yes they are, they knew the speeding limit was there, they knew freely they were breaking it, and they knew also there would be consequence for doing so (Why do you think everyone slows way down when they see a cop car), they realize their fault, but always when they get caught, they say this is wrong, or that speeding limits are stupid, or some such.

This is denial of any wrong doing, and that very same denial is what leads people to not to seek Gods forgiveness.

So just as we do not blame Law makers for the existence of Criminals, but praise them form making laws that protect us, the same should be held true for God.

Have I answered this Question or Consideration you have regarding this?

If he gives a warning, it is either a very weak warning - knowing it wouldn't have the desired effect or he simply did it so that he could say "I told you so" later. "I warned you about that, you didn't listen, you didn't ask for forgiveness, there fore you shall go to hell for it".

Just like Secular Laws are in Place, and enforced, so too is Gods Law. Both “Lawmakers” know that there will be those that will break the Laws and those that won’t. Just like every Judge knows there are those that will see the error of their ways, and those that will not.


Have I provided you an answer or insight into this dilemma?

I can't fully grasp God either, but if we think things through logically, we can see major flaws in the way God supposedly works.

Like what for example, this is truly the grist of what you came here for, you have issues with how you have viewed God, and you seek answers.

I look forward to your questions, as always.

I can't really see how we can call God just and ominpotent at the same time. It clashes.

How so?

It all comes back to that argument that he knows all before it happens. He allows people to be born knowing full well they will reject him and then get sent to hell. If God did not know all that would happen, then yes it would be totally reasonable for God to warn us and then to punish us when we rejected him. I would agree with everything you say. But the bible says God is omiopent, he does know all, so there for any temptations he allows to come across our path he knew we would give into , so there for it is entrapment. Warnings are arbitrary.

So what you are saying is that an “All Powerful god” should remove our ability to think, and make choices based on logic or emotion, or remove or ability think beyond instinct, (or eliminate us completely) based simply on the fact that this “god” would not like what we will do?

Now, I would say that would be the actions of the a “god” that many people accuse the Christian God of being, a Despot, and ruthless overlord.

A god that would do “You will do as I say” and “I know what you will do before you do it, so lets skip the whole shebang and I’ll punish you right now”.

I am at a loss that this strikes you as a “Better Alternative”?

I hope maybe I have given you some insight, but I do not believe I could answer a question here. I am sorry.

Anyway, I have the feeling now that we may be starting to frustrate each other. Perhaps it might be best if we accept a stalemate here. I don't think either of us will convince each other on this one.

A Stalemate is when either one person traps another, in such a way as to not be able to win, or where both players do not have sufficient resources to win.

If we are at a stalemate, which one are we at?

And I am not trying to ‘Convince’ you, I am simply seeking to offer you an explanation to your questions.

If you chose to re-convert or not, is not part of this, this is simply an exchange of Ask and Answer and seek more knowledge.

I am almost sad that you view this as I am trying to “Convert” you, I am only trying to provide insight to the questions you came with, and hope and pray that you leave with answers.

God Bless

Key

 

[intricatic]

You'll have to pardon my only answering a few of these, but I hope they work. I've been rather busy all day, so this is sort of a cheaply thrown together response.

11) And the typical question - How can a merciful God give infinite punishment for finite crimes? (I’d like an answer from a Christian who believes that hell is eternal suffering.) And please don’t try to evade the question by saying something like “God doesn’t send anyone to hell, people choose to reject God, so send themselves to hell”. This is not a reason to send someone to hell, it’s just a consequence of one’s actions. I could commit a crime knowing that I will most likely go to go to jail for it, but it won’t be ME that finds myself guilty in court, determines the appropriate punishment and locks me up.

This is a faulty analogy. When you sin, it's against God that you sin, and yourself. Those who reject Christ stand condemned already because they placed themselves there despite God's efforts to reconcile them.

It would be as if you were in court for committing a terrible crime and the judge grants you complete leniency; he says your adulterous lawbreaking is forgiven by a profession of faith. If you reject that leniency, you stand condemned for the crime you committed. If you accept it, you're free to go, and given authority to help spread this same forgiveness to others. Thus, knowing the choice between forgiveness and condemnation, one must accept responsibility if they make the decision to take responsibility for their own actions. If they decide to accept that forgiveness, they become representatives of the court - officers sent out to spread forgiveness and, consequently, condemnation; though not through the officer himself, but through the person who choses to reject the offer of forgiveness.
This goes back to your points 1, 2 and 3.

1) Why did God create us knowing we would sin and then get upset (or heart broken) when we did?

This answer requires a bit more elaboration. Do you have a reasonable understanding of God's existence as it relates to time? Let's reason this out. If God can see all things that have been, will be, could have been, and are, is it not reasonable that He also sees a larger picture of the whole and found some worth in creating mankind despite our mutual and inevitable fall? Perhaps He thought that His Love for us would be all the greater if we could chose to love Him, our appreciation all the greater? I should think that, even though God knew the reaction of sin was Divine wrath, He also understood that this was a painful separation; like the emotional split from a child and mother, and the cut of the umbilical chord when the child becomes independant of the mother. The love is still there, but the child will, at times, need to be disciplined, which is never pleasant for the parents or the child.

2) Why does God need sacrifices to forgive sin? After all he expects us to forgive unconditionally so why doesn’t he? (Consider this one scrapped. I now concede that god doesn't expect us to forgive unconditionally)

This is true. Also, I would add that God saw a deficiency in mankind that needed to be filled, the ritual sacrifices in the OT Law were instituted as an antitype of the filling of that deficiency in Christ.

3) Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself to enable himself to forgive sins? (I can accept here that God may have been trying to make a point about the seriousness of sin - but it just brings me right back to question 1)

This also brings us back to the answer I gave for point 1. God's love for mankind was so much that He was willing that we might suffer, and eventually He, Himself would suffer in the reconciliation of the estranged creation in mankind to Himself. We suffered while He suffered, then we imposed our own Law, given by God, upon God Himself. The reason any of this suffering had to occur is that mankind cannot justify himself before God. Before or after the fall. We were created to be lesser than God, but created in His image. Thus, our sin was to try and seek independance from God's Grace. Ironically, that's the same Grace that reconciled us later.

Consider it this way. God was married to Israel, as the hope of the future salvation of mankind through Christ. God did not want to see any man suffer, but He was willing that we might have the choice to impose this upon ourselves, and our fellow men, that it might demonstrate His Grace and Mercy through both us, as antitypes of Christ, and Himself through Christ. The reasoning for this to be a worthwhile trade is demonstrated past, present, and future, through each person who shares in this antitype, through Christ Himself on the cross, and in the eternal peace of Heaven and communion with God. God is now married to the Church, as the fulfillment of that salvation. This is to say that God is now married to each member of the Church, each portion of the body of Christ, the antitype manifest through each member of the Body or congregation of believers.

The consequence of sin is death; God's creation of mankind universally experiences this consequence. Thus mankind universally requires an intermediator in order to be perfected and conquer death just as Christ conquered death. God's plan for the salvation and reconciliation of mankind began the instant that Adam and Eve fell. The promise of life worked it's way from generation to generation, being kept alive and taught through the covenant when it came to Abraham, and then the Law when it came to Moses. It then became manifest in Life , it's solid form, when it came to Christ.

Isaiah 59
9 Therefore justice is far from us,
Nor does righteousness overtake us;
We look for light, but there is darkness!
For brightness, but we walk in blackness!
10 We grope for the wall like the blind,
And we grope as if we had no eyes;
We stumble at noonday as at twilight;
We are as dead men in desolate places.
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Ezekiel 22
23 And the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 24 “Son of man, say to her: ‘You are a land that is not cleansed or rained on in the day of indignation.’ 25 The conspiracy of her prophets in her midst is like a roaring lion tearing the prey; they have devoured people; they have taken treasure and precious things; they have made many widows in her midst. 26 Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them. 27 Her princes in her midst are like wolves tearing the prey, to shed blood, to destroy people, and to get dishonest gain. 28 Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD,’ when the LORD had not spoken. 29 The people of the land have used oppressions, committed robbery, and mistreated the poor and needy; and they wrongfully oppress the stranger. 30 So I sought for a man among them who would make a wall, and stand in the gap before Me on behalf of the land, that I should not destroy it; but I found no one. 31 Therefore I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; and I have recompensed their deeds on their own heads,” says the Lord GOD.
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Ephesians 2
14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
​

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Man made the wall of seperation, and he made it very poorly because only God can create something perfectly. The Law God gave to mankind in the Old Covenant was only imperfect insomuch as our capacity to fulfill it. Christ came and abolished the wall and became the reconciliation to God on our behalf; as fully God Himself, and fully man, He served as the perfect catalyst to fulfill the promise of life given to Adam and Eve. Thus, mankind still has free will, but God has total sovereignty. God required a perfect atonement for sin, the wall of seperation that veiled our hearts, minds, and souls from Him. This was to reconcile us to Him. We chose seperation from Him, and we lived in seperation, it may not have been fair to future generations, by our standards, but by God's standards, faith justifies even the lowliest believer - so Christ became the bridge between the gap, so to speak, to enable us to come before God's throne in all confidence and faith.
​

12) Picture this. A small infant sitting with Jesus in heaven. Jesus says….(change "sinned to much" to "rejected me" so you don't think I don't understand how Christians are saved)


"Little child, praise God you are here with Me in heaven! There are your mother and your brother burning in hell -- forever. Your mother sinned too much , and your brother left the faith. No, I can never forgive them and release them from their agony."
How is this a picture of a merciful God? He sounds very sick and twisted to me. How could this child possibly live a happy life in heaven knowing what is happening to his family? Perhaps God will wipe the kid’s brain clean so he will never know how evil his God was?

The last two questions: As a christian, I actually rejected the notion of a hell where there is eternal suffering. But I know there are many of you out there who do believe in that type of hell and I would love to see your justifications for those two

Ok, probably way too many tricky questions there, so I'll stop now.

To this, I answer with the words of Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 18
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? 26 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. 27 Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. 28 Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn and live!”


​

 

[intricatic]

But God knew full well we would eat the cake. He knew the decision we would make before we were even born. There was no way we wouldn't eat the cake, because it was predetermined. He knew no warnings would make a difference. Yet he still wants to throw us into hell for sinning and not asking for forgiveness?

He casts no one into Hell who is not deserving, by their own admonishment, of Hell. All men are deserving of Hell. The fact that some men, for a simple thing such as faith, will be saved implies that mankind also has free-will in order to be able to turn from their faithless lives and be reborn into faith through Christ. This isn't asking a lot from us.

 

[EmbracingHim]

About you being glad things are enjoyable...

Heck no. It's great that there are enjoyable things. But it seems a bit harsh to me that God should condemn us for doing these things and not asking for forgiveness, when he knew how much we want to do them, because it's in our nature, which he pretty much created. (hope I made sence with that big long sentence.... I should really go to bed).

Indeed, God has delivered us pleasure that is great and that we give thanks for!! We can do the things of enjoyment that God gave us without any need for forgiveness. God only gives us guidance so we do not 'hurt' ourselves or others by practicing such enjoyment in a sinful way. . Now some things we do are not truly enjoyable, but we convince ourselves they are...this is deception and I could offer the example of children who sniff paint.

I can't really see why we can't have a free will without sin. Perhaps God could have created a mechanism that stops us from sinning, just like he created other defence mechanisms in our body that protect us from harm (like the ability to feel pain. - keeps us from damaging ourselves further, like if we place our hand on a hot element).

A big question that came to mind just recently is how will God stop us from sinning in heaven? Will he take away our free will then? Will we be robots in heaven? He is going to obviously find some way to prevent sin there, but yet keep free will (if it is so important to him), so why didn't he do it when he created man originally?

Awww...but we do have free will without sin. For example, you don't appear to be a person who abuses alcohol (although not knowing you). If true, you have chose not to be a drunkard. Amen!! Free Will without sin in this instance. In time all desires for sin can be abolished by one's own choice. In maturity we see that becoming drunk causes heachaches and is not good for us in many other ways. The same holds true for other sins. As far as Heaven, sin does not exist in Heaven.

Indeed, God can and does sway the hearts of men. But it is not in the area of one's 'Faith,' but to protect His Children. There is no worries about the future in trusting Him.

The mechanism that stops us from sin is 'seeing' the truth, maturity of Spirit and 'love.'

Not quite sure what you mean by that question. But I'm sure if it works in heaven, then why not on earth?

Awwww...and now you see our hope. Indeed, this is our Lord's pray and our full Faith that what is in Heaven will be upon earth.

Convinced...I see you believe. It brings delight to my eyes to recognize that God does indeed have a grip upon you!! Indeed, you ask these questions...not because your are 'not' convinced...but because it is difficult (for all of us) to live in this world and be no part of it. It is difficult to see the sin, death and decay that is occuring. We rise above though and rationalize that flame in our hearts is there (we can't shake the truth once learning it). God exists and it is for us to come to an accurate knowledge of the love in us that also can not be denied.

Peace and Joy.

 

[Silent Enigma]

It's probably been answered by now but...

Question #6--

Deu 22:28 Suppose a woman isn't engaged to be married, and a man talks her into sleeping with him. If they are caught,
Deu 22:29 they will be forced to get married. He must give her father fifty pieces of silver as a bride-price and can never divorce her.

It's from the contemporary english version, so take that for what you will, but this is also how I always interpreted that passage. That's all I have time for, for now.

Bye.

 

[EmbracingHim]

Hmmm...the Mosaic law...

Today under Christ a sin was already commited (as was then), and marrying the person doesn't remove the sin. Repentance and turning to Christ who washes us clean does though.

It's probably been answered by now but...

Question #6--



It's from the contemporary english version, so take that for what you will, but this is also how I always interpreted that passage. That's all I have time for, for now.

Bye.

 

[revmalone]

Greetings
You asked these question and I'd like to give you the reason, according to the Scriptures and not anything I think but just truth, ok.

questions
1) Why did God create us knowing we would sin and then get upset (or heart broken) when we did?
Good cannot exist without evil nor can evil exist without good. This creates for humans the freedom of Choice or freewill.

God could not be justified if he destroyed evil, for God to destroy evil would be evil. That all important choice gives love it's full meaning.

A love that is forced is not love but add into the mix the choice, and it reveals a purer love, true motives and humble thankfulness. So if God destroyed evil he would destroy the highest form of Love.
________________________________________________________________________
2) Why does God need sacrifices to forgive sin? After all he expects us to forgive unconditionally so why doesn’t he? (Consider this one scrapped. I now concede that god doesn't expect us to forgive unconditionally)


3) Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself to enable himself to forgive sins? (I can accept here that God may have been trying to make a point about the seriousness of sin - but it just brings me right back to question 1)

[Answered 2-3 together]
________________________________________________________________________
After Adam and eve sinned, it tainted them, there blood was infected by sin and God fortold he was going to put a division between the devils seed he planted and the women. this was telling about Jesus the Messhiah to come.

Adams very own blood he would pass would be passed on to every human born by reproduction between human man and women. Bare with me there is a lesson coming.

There is a secret here in the statment God said, the messhiah would be without a mans seed involved. If a Messiah were to be born without the human mans seed, then that blood would be pure and Holy, this is what was so important about his Blood and it was what those Sacrifice was telling.

Leviticus chapter 1 is perfect to descride the meaning of those Holy Scarifices, they are even lined up exactly like they are told in the New testament this was done exact, time for time, day for day, hour for hour matches perfect with these Scarifice in Leviticus.

Go provided thru the Virgin birth the Messiah's pure blood void of the infection of sin given to the Father seed of the human race.

Jesus was placed into Mary by the Holy Spirit, void of the man seed that was tainted with sin. This is why the Bible calls us all sinners.

We had human Dads,The first Dad was Adam and everyone born from the mixture of the seed of a Human man and Human women would be passed down this infection, but Jesus was the Son of God, perfect in Blood by the Virgin Birth.

The he had to deal with the Perfect Law, the bottom marks for good in Gods sight. James said that if one gets broken , perfection is lost. Jesus walked these without failing to do them all exactly perfectly.

God witnessed and the Holy Spirit witnessed to this when Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit decended from heaven as God said this is my beloved Son in whom I'm well pleased. He was accepted for his pure life fulfilling these because no human could do it, they were supposed to teach us that we all fall short and we need help and how serious sin really was. Paul said the law was to show that sin was exceeding sinful.

So God provided a pure Blood Sacrifice thru the Virgin birth.
Jesus fulfilled and conquered the power the Law held us under, it would be thru him that we could overcome the feeling of a bondage of forced ritual service to God, into a Joy to Love him, a desire to know him more, but he had to shed that perfect Blood live a perfect life without one wrong thing. There was no way of Cheating God was looking at him.

Why did he become a man, to experiance what it was for us to live with the struggles of temptation, here is a great example but few may have seen.

When the Devil tempted Jesus in the Desert after 40 days of fasting how did he defeat the Devil. yes it was with Scripture but lets get deeper.

Jesus had just been baptized and filled with the Holy Spirit. Then he went into the Desert. He came to give a bleesed example here, he defeated the Devil as a Spirit filled human man.

He(Jesus) wanted to understand our human feelings, our failures and it allowed him to be able to understand and better relate with us in all things. Were told this in Hebrews 4:15 " For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."

*His blood was pure.
*His life was lived perfect witnessed by God.
*He became human to better relate to us.
*He fulfilled the Ten Commandments fo us because we couldn't our blood blew that chance to reach that kind of Standard of Good.

He also came to fulfil the thing told in the prophets, Psalms and to fulfill all ritual laws and there need.
Jesus said this himself. Matthew 5:17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

His ressurection and victory over death put down the last Strong hold that sin in the Garden caused. Now Because of that Ressurection we know we will live forever. He was on the earth 40 days after he arose
from the Dead, this was equal to the old testament Festivals of 40 days long. this was how long Moses was up on the Mount of God, 40 days, it rains 40 days and night, one feast of the new moon times was 40 day this was after the other festivals.

Jesus was the only hope to get this all done, we can't be good hardly for a Day and God knew that, remember he defeated the Devil as a Spirit filled man not by his Holy power but thru the very thing we have also when were Saved by Jesus Christ and walking in the Holy Spirits power.

I'll stop here for now, we all needed a Sacrifice because we were with out hope and without God. Ephesians 2:11-13
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

this is only directed at question 2-3 had to stop getting late.

we do need Jesus or we have to pay our own debt for our sins, we all know were that take those to pay, HELL.


Keep seeking because he is you
Peace to all in Christ.
Rev Malone

 

[OnceConvinced]

I am almost sad that you view this as I am trying to “Convert” you, I am only trying to provide insight to the questions you came with, and hope and pray that you leave with answers.

God Bless

Key

No I don't see you as trying to convert me, not at all. You are trying to get your points across that is all. "Stalemate" may have been the wrong term to use.

I still can't see hell as being just and anyone who would send people to hell as a merciful and loving God, especially when that God created the hell, established the rules and yet knew all that was going to happen (omniscience). He knew who was going to accept him and who was going to reject them, yet allowed them to be born anyway knowing they would go to hell. He gave us free will but isn't able to keep them from sinning without violating that free will? He didn't want us to be robots, but yet when it comes to heaven how will he handle the situation then? He let's Satan exist knowing Satan is going to drag many of us to hell.

It just does't make sence, no matter how much rationalisation you do when it comes to justice and punishment. A loving and merciful God would not have put us in this situation.

 

[georgie2319]

Do u want us to answer every question or just choose a few?

 

[OnceConvinced]

This is a faulty analogy. When you sin, it's against God that you sin, and yourself. Those who reject Christ stand condemned already because they placed themselves there despite God's efforts to reconcile them.

I disagree. I think it is a perfectly good analogy. We may put ourselves in the court room so to speak - we bring ourselves under God's judgement, but we do not choose to go to hell. No one in their right mind would choose to go to hell. One may refuse to acknowledge they have done wrong, but that is not choosing to be sent to hell. Just take Sadam Hussein for instance. He refuses to acknowledge US justice. He does not believe he has done anything guilty of the death penalty. I don't believe he wants to be a matyr either.

God sends us to hell. He will send us there kicking and screaming. It is not a choice.

This answer requires a bit more elaboration. Do you have a reasonable understanding of God's existence as it relates to time? Let's reason this out. If God can see all things that have been, will be, could have been, and are, is it not reasonable that He also sees a larger picture of the whole and found some worth in creating mankind despite our mutual and inevitable fall?

But too bad for all those billions who end up burning in hell just for that "Big picture" huh? A high price to pay especially for those who are burning in hell for eternity just for not believing in him.

Thanks Intricatic for the time you spent with your replies.

 

[OnceConvinced]

Do u want us to answer every question or just choose a few?

Just a few will do. Any you feel you have a good answer for.

 

[OnceConvinced]

Awww...but we do have free will without sin. For example, you don't appear to be a person who abuses alcohol (although not knowing you). If true, you have chose not to be a drunkard. Amen!! Free Will without sin in this instance. In time all desires for sin can be abolished by one's own choice. In maturity we see that becoming drunk causes heachaches and is not good for us in many other ways. The same holds true for other sins. As far as Heaven, sin does not exist in Heaven.

(No I don't abuse alcohol )

But how does sin not exist in heaven? The only way it couldn't is if we all mature Christians who decide not to, or if God prevents it in some way. God could prevent it no problems I'm sure, but then why couldn't he while we were on earth? If it comes down to us deciding not to sin, how does he ensure we don't? What if we slip up like we do on Earth? No one is perfect on Earth, so why should it be the case in heaven? How does God prevent that and why wouldn't he do it while we were on Earth? Why didn't God just make sure sin didn't exist on Earth?

(Sorry about all those questions, but I guess most of them are rhetorical or the answers may never be known until we got there)

Thanks as always for your kind replies.

 

[OnceConvinced]

It's probably been answered by now but...

Question #6--



It's from the contemporary english version, so take that for what you will, but this is also how I always interpreted that passage. That's all I have time for, for now.

Bye.

Thanks SE. But wow, that is quite a difference to the older translations. It really does concern me that some versions have been conveniently mistranslated to cover up a dodgy scripture (much like the ones I discussed with Calmanian)

 

[OnceConvinced]

Greetings
God could not be justified if he destroyed evil, for God to destroy evil would be evil. That all important choice gives love it's full meaning.

But he has destroyed evil and he will destroy evil.

In the Past: The Great flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Many many examples of God wiping out evil people in the OT.

In the future: He is going to throw the devil into the lake of fire. He is going to send billions of people to hell (including mainly decent people who rejected him)

A love that is forced is not love but add into the mix the choice, and it reveals a purer love, true motives and humble thankfulness. So if God destroyed evil he would destroy the highest form of Love.

Sorry, I can't see the logic in this statement. The thing is no matter what, it is a choice with only one option. Believe or be damned. Not much of a choice really if we want to stay alive.

Thank you revmalone for the time you spent replying to me. You did lose me a bit in the main part of your post, but I'll have another read through again.

 

[revmalone]

I have think I have been given the way to explain that concept that confused you about that Choice or what is known as freewill, was the Highest form of love God had given to mankind.
Two people were walking together side by side talking, they haven't been together long and things are so sweet between the two they enter into a room and there is 2 doors at the front of that room, they look at each other and that love still captures them with every gaze into each other eyes.
The man step aside quickly and take all the doors from the room, by taking all ways out from the room for the unsupecting person has made your love turn evil in there sight, and it was. Now there traped and they have no hope to leave and are only victims and now that love that you thought was there has now turned Evil by there actions and in there motive can't be known.
But The man reaches into his heart and pulls a square shaped cube, he looks at you with love yet he then places the cube against the wall and then a door way appears he steps thru and you can't believe it, it's a it's a door into Heaven and then he says to you come, it's was that simple you only have to come to him this created your a much higher form then it was when you can in. Now all motives in your heart are made from The purest devotion and love , thankfulness, joy, rejoicing in the Highest form of love that could Come from you.
So Given you no choice would be unjust for God to do, so Evil was not Destroyed, For Jesus is that one who pulled the door from Himself to make a way to escape.
He told us to come, it is that simple.
Peace to all in Christ
Rev Malone

 

[EmbracingHim]

(No I don't abuse alcohol )

Glad to hear this (roflol)!! Me neither...but this is a good 'example' of 'choice.' Why don't we? The same holds true of the angels of heaven...'mature?' -- spiritually knowledgeable and maturity lends to the equation, but also 'love.' We choose not to abuse alcohol because we care for our bodies instead by choice.

We 'decide' to love although we might have natural tendencies as we are created in God's image (Whom is love). However, all in all...it is by choice that we sin or not, love or not, live or die.

But how does sin not exist in heaven? The only way it couldn't is if we all mature Christians who decide not to, or if God prevents it in some way. God could prevent it no problems I'm sure, but then why couldn't he while we were on earth? If it comes down to us deciding not to sin, how does he ensure we don't? What if we slip up like we do on Earth? No one is perfect on Earth, so why should it be the case in heaven? How does God prevent that and why wouldn't he do it while we were on Earth? Why didn't God just make sure sin didn't exist on Earth?

If God prevents sin here on earth...He then would remove our ''free'' choice and will. We would be as robots...sinfree, but without the 'choice' to be...the 'choice' to love...and the 'choice' to live. Are we as humans content with robotic 'love' or affection from those about us? What if we are only loved for what we have to offer? What if we are only loved because of our exterior appearance? What if we are only loved because we have 'power?'

Ask yourself would any of these satisfy you as a person? How much less satisfactory for God would these empty guestures of love be?

Hugs and blessings 'convinced'

Thanks as always for your kind replies.

Thank you too and you are very welcome. I quoted some scriptures in my blog that might be interesting for review if you care to.