My Problem with the Invisible Church

[tadoflamb]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

 

[Fireinfolding]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

Do you think the Eunuch saw Philip aproaching his Chariot and said to himself... "Hmmm, I think I see a living stone (a member of the body of Christ which is his church) approaching"?

Ocourse not right?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yea invisibility is hard to see, but it is there.

Which is why if I was a super hero, or heroine, I would want invisibility. .

 

[TigerBunny]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

Turn on the "Light".

 

[Windlord]

lol

 

[Matthan]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

Hummm... Well, can you see Jesus? You claim that you believe in Him, so why can't you see Him?

You see, there is a basic problem that few people who want to be Christians will face. There are a lot of people who will tell you they are Christians. Their reasoning might be that "they go to church all the time", or "they say prayers for everyone" or "they give to (or work for) charities", or any number of other things that they might do. But, does any of those things make them a true Christian? Nope, at least not according to Scripture. If any person truly believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and that person truly repents of his sinful ways and trys his best to follow the teachings of Jesus (love for God, love for our fellow man, etc), then he is a true Christian because that is what Scripture (God's Truth) tells us that we must do.

So, you have a lot of people who go to a lot of different churches, but true Christians belong to an invisible (spiritual) Church even thought they may worship God in the midst of a visible congregation.

Matthan

 

[EraseTheHate]

it does seem kinda silly doesnt it?

 

[Mick116]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

It's not invisible, it's just poorly organised.

There is, however, a part of the Church (the so-called, "Triumphant") that actually is invisible to us "Militants" still on earth...

 

[plmarquette]

It is "invisible" because we hide our light under a bushel... refusing to be a witness of the reality of what God does , every day , 24-7-365 in our lives ...

Invisible , because we refuse to stand up to evil in all areas of our lives

Invisible , because we limit God's time , manifestations, and works by our selfish pride and arrogance ... yet in times of need , insist on his attention , grace, and mercy ...

 

[sunlover1]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

So then walk by faith and not by sight.


(Hebrews 1)

 

[Markea]

Amen, and that's what faith is.. the substance (or foundation) of things hoped for.. the evidence of things not seen.. or not yet realized..

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

Yea invisibility is hard to see, but it is there.

Which is why if I was a super hero, or heroine, I would want invisibility. .

Turn on the "Light".

Ohhhh, you guys! Haha!

 

[Macarius]

God is invisible, you got a problem with Him??

 

[Cribstyl]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

That's a good one Kyuk,yuk,yuk


This also reminds me of the key texts used by Catholics to teach apostolic succession from Peter, " I cant see it either.


Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Questions: Could this have been a prophecy for Peter only?
Are there texts that show fulfillment of Peter building the church?
Where is anyonelse mentioned but Peter to build the church?
Where is apostolic succession an issue of these text?

Mat 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

When does personal access(A KEY) to the kingdom of heaven a commission of authority over the church on earth?)

..........................................................................
LET'S SEE WHAT MARK'S GOSPEL SAY ABOUT THESE SAME SITUATION.
-----------------------------------------------------


Mar 8:29And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mar 8:30And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Mar 8:31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Would such an important mandate be forgotten by Mark or did it really happened in Matthew without mirrors?

--------------------------------------------------
LETS SEE WHAT LUKE HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS VITAL UNDERTANDING, ESPECIALLY SINCE HIS LETTERS TEACHES US HOW THE CHURCH BEGAN
------------------------------------------------
Luk 9:18And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
Luk 9:19They answering said, John the Baptist; but some [say], Elias; and others [say], that one of the old prophets is risen again.
Luk 9:20He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
Luk 9:21And he straitly charged them, and commanded [them] to tell no man that thing;

Luk 9:22Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luk 9:37And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.


Luk 9:46Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,



If Jesus had given Peter apostolic authority over the other apostles in Luke 9:18, why in the sequence of events recorded by Luke 9:46,47 the apostles did know that Peter was the head?



forgive me
CRIB

 

[Fireinfolding]

That's a good one Kyuk,yuk,yuk


This also reminds me of the key texts used by Catholics to teach apostolic succession from Peter, " I cant see it either.


Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

..........................................................................
LET'S SEE WHAT MARK'S GOSPEL SAY ABOUT THESE SAME SITUATION.
-----------------------------------------------------


Mar 8:29And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mar 8:30And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Mar 8:31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.


--------------------------------------------------
LETS SEE WHAT LUKE HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS VITAL UNDERTANDING, ESPECIALLY SINCE HIS LETTERS TEACHES US HOW THE CHURCH BEGAN
------------------------------------------------
Luk 9:18And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
Luk 9:19They answering said, John the Baptist; but some [say], Elias; and others [say], that one of the old prophets is risen again.
Luk 9:20He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
Luk 9:21And he straitly charged them, and commanded [them] to tell no man that thing;

Luk 9:22Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luk 9:37And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.


Luk 9:46Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,



If Jesus had given Peter apostolic authority over the other apostles in Luke 9:18, why in the sequence of events recorded by Luke 9:46,47 the apostles did know that Peter was the head?



forgive me
CRIB

Hey thanks Crib, You added to my learning here. I never even looked at the other gospels to compare (just the one account). I also never noticed the greatest (among them) bickering till you posted it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Im adding those into my Peter is NOT file

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[WarriorAngel]

Every Gospel wrote was according to that which they saw....IF you have 4 different ppl all giving an account of someone...they will ALL be honest but they will be seeing it at another angle..

Luke got His queue from Paul, and Mark took his info from Peter.

Peter might have felt it bragging to remark on the issue.

However; Matthew thought nothing about giving ALL the details.

WE should respect Luke and Mark BUT were pretty much witnesses to the testimony of the Apostles.

Kinda funny how we accept the ECF's Mark and Luke who were taught by the Apostles as Gospel truth..
But not the other ECF's.

That's a good one Kyuk,yuk,yuk


This also reminds me of the key texts used by Catholics to teach apostolic succession from Peter, " I cant see it either.


Mat 16:18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

..........................................................................
LET'S SEE WHAT MARK'S GOSPEL SAY ABOUT THESE SAME SITUATION.
-----------------------------------------------------


Mar 8:29And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.
Mar 8:30And he charged them that they should tell no man of him.
Mar 8:31And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.


--------------------------------------------------
LETS SEE WHAT LUKE HAS TO SAY ABOUT THIS VITAL UNDERTANDING, ESPECIALLY SINCE HIS LETTERS TEACHES US HOW THE CHURCH BEGAN
------------------------------------------------
Luk 9:18And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?
Luk 9:19They answering said, John the Baptist; but some [say], Elias; and others [say], that one of the old prophets is risen again.
Luk 9:20He said unto them, But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
Luk 9:21And he straitly charged them, and commanded [them] to tell no man that thing;

Luk 9:22Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Luk 9:37And it came to pass, that on the next day, when they were come down from the hill, much people met him.


Luk 9:46Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
Luk 9:47And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,



If Jesus had given Peter apostolic authority over the other apostles in Luke 9:18, why in the sequence of events recorded by Luke 9:46,47 the apostles did know that Peter was the head?



forgive me
CRIB

 

[Macarius]

Every Gospel wrote was according to that which they saw....IF you have 4 different ppl all giving an account of someone...they will ALL be honest but they will be seeing it at another angle..

Luke got His queue from Paul, and Mark took his info from Peter.

Peter might have felt it bragging to remark on the issue.

However; Matthew thought nothing about giving ALL the details.

WE should respect Luke and Mark BUT were pretty much witnesses to the testimony of the Apostles.

Kinda funny how we accept the ECF's Mark and Luke who were taught by the Apostles as Gospel truth..
But not the other ECF's.

Around 80% of the early church fathers who comment on this text (Matt 16) didn't even think that the "rock" Christ was promising to build upon was Peter.

St. Augustine believed, at the end of his life, that it was Peter's confession. This was by far the most common patristic opinion.

 

[Cribstyl]

Every Gospel wrote was according to that which they saw....IF you have 4 different ppl all giving an account of someone...they will ALL be honest but they will be seeing it at another angle..

Luke got His queue from Paul, and Mark took his info from Peter.

Peter might have felt it bragging to remark on the issue.

However; Matthew thought nothing about giving ALL the details.

WE should respect Luke and Mark BUT were pretty much witnesses to the testimony of the Apostles.

Kinda funny how we accept the ECF's Mark and Luke who were taught by the Apostles as Gospel truth..
But not the other ECF's.

Not so fast my dear Sister, this issue was not made clear in Matt 16.

In Matthew 18 according to the sequence of events, is proof that the apostles were still desputing among themselves who was the greatest. This proves that commentary on Matthew 16 about Peter's Institution as the supreme head by Christ,(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm#II )was not the understanding of the Apostles themselves.
Mat 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum,.......

Mat 18:1At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? ​

Mat 18:2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, ​

MARK"S GOSPEL SAY​

Mar 9:33And he came to Capernaum: and being in the house he asked them, What was it that ye disputed among yourselves by the way?
Mar 9:34But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest.
Mar 9:35And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto them, If any man desire to be first, [the same] shall be last of all, and servant of all. Mar 9:36And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them, ​

LUKE GOSPEL ACCOUNT​

Luk 9:46Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.​

Luk 22:24And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

Luk 22:26But ye [shall] not [be] so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27For whether [is] greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? [is] not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

 

[IamAdopted]

Depends on who is looking for the Church for it is not invisable to our King. It is not through the carnal mind that any one can see the church. For what is born of flesh is flesh but what is born of Spirit is Spirit, Need spiritual eyes to see this wonderful Church buit on Christ.

 

[Albion]

It's invisible. I can't see it.

I see that the problem of accepting things that are not visible has already been solved. You believe in plenty that you can't see, such as God.

But when it comes to the "visible" church or the "invisible" church, remember that these are only terms used to express an idea. You're not quoting scritpture when you say them, not any more than when you say "rapture," "Trinity," or many other terms we commonly use to express a Biblical concept.

We could, of course, say "the total of those true believers of whatever denomination or location who are known only to God" but that takes a lot more time.