Ellwood3
Active Member
Atheism
Atheism promotes a persons intellect to be a guide, then makes reference to that guide for its evidence that the guide is right. Atheists can be as self-righteous as the most frustrating kind of Evangelicals.
Like Evangelicals, they have a gospel to promote. That boils down to I am so certain I am correct in all my thinking that I am sure God does not exist. But a person cannot be sure of this. Yet they are. Atheists are the counterpoints of fierce Evangelicals, certain they are right and sure of the means of arriving at their conclusions. It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist. Agnostics are much safer in saying they dont know whether God exists or not.
Mequa, you said in Post 1:
[FONT="]"I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis."
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[FONT="][/FONT]
But you can't know it, whether or not it appears comforting. Maybe there is something you miss in Christianity because of the dogma and unkindness you have been dealing with, but atheism, in my opinion, is a lot worse as an option, and do know, I know many Christians who, if I used them as a guide, I'd want nothing to do with Christianity or faith.
But don't kid yourself about reason being reductionist.
Naturalism is by its nature, reductionary. It assumes what can be seen is all that is there. But if there is more to life, the assumption of it is based is an error.
You wrote (Post 1):
"Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire."
That reminds me of the book The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis (letters of instruction written by a demon to his nephew demon about how to tempt someone to be led astray) and a book called His Infernal Majesty: Satans Ten Most Believable Lies by Dave Breese. The second lie is God is a Cosmic Sadist.
I think in assuming there is no enemy of God, you have wrongly assumed characteristics of the Enemy are characteristics of God.
That is an easy mistake to make, but it is a huge one.
I will return to Gnosticism:
Mequa wrote:
"I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.
I prefer the Gospel of Thomas to fundamentalist Christianity. This quote, for example, is something I would say makes far more sense in terms of a form of salvation than relying on someone bleeding on a cross:
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
As I said before, is it true? It may sound good, but is it true? If there is anger in a person and they bring forth anger will anger save them? And if they dont bring anger forth anger will destroy them? What about rage? Hate? Love? Bigotry? Sadism?
It is false. However good it sounds.
That is about the best Pagels has to offer. She does not give the full text, but analyzes it to harmonize with her thinking. Yet Pagels is not an ascetic as the original Gnostics were.
Ben Witherington wrote (in What Have They Done with Jesus?: Beyond Strange Theories and Bad HistoryWhy We Can Trust the Bible) :
"In light of the evidence of the primary sources themselves, it is puzzling why scholars such as Elaine Pagels, Karen King, Stephen Patterson, Marvin Meyer and James Robinson would find this material so exciting. None of them are actually ascetics like the original Gnostics, nor have they withdrawn from the world and anathematized the goodness of things material. Frankly, the Old Gnostics would have repudiated the new ones, and would even have rejected their revisionist take on Christian history."
Pagels's philosophy is useless. She examines only a portion of one of the Nag Hammadi works--and even the one quote she's best known for is not even true.
How about Epicurus? He encouraged people to think there is no afterlife, and also that therefore enjoy life engage in the good life. But is it true?
Atheists may find peace in believing there is no afterlife, but is it true?
Naturalism is full of untestable assumptions about reality. It's empty.
And Nietzsche?
You quote him. Understand that besides declaring God dead, Nietzsche also lied in telling people there is no truth. Do you know he even said there are no facts? Though people in despair will often turn to him, he has nothing to offer.
So often, people run across Christians who are not Christ-like. They're not even nice. And they are turned off to the Christian God because of that.
Maybe what that means is that God is willing to rescue even people who are not likable.
In C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, he has a chapter about this issue, where he talks about we can't assume because we know there are people like this that Christianity is false. How much worse may they have been without Jesus?
These apparent "better" ideas -- Atheism, Gnosticism, Epicureanism, Naturalism, and Nihilism --all things you have brought up exist on a sort of continuum.
The person assumes they can know there is no God (perhaps due to fear of Hell and damnation) so they grab fast onto atheism. Gnosticism (at least the strange new kind from Pagels) tells you you can be your own Savior. That's a lie. Epicureanism tells you to have fun without guilt, because there are no eternal consequences. People often find life very empty seeking that kind of satisfaction. Naturalism states falsehoods about existence, making assumptions, and Nihilism robs people of their dignity. Nietzsche is nobody's friend.
So continue to search. But be sure if you invite Jesus into your life, He is not the evil you see in this world.
I encourage you to search. Use truth as your light.
Atheism promotes a persons intellect to be a guide, then makes reference to that guide for its evidence that the guide is right. Atheists can be as self-righteous as the most frustrating kind of Evangelicals.
Like Evangelicals, they have a gospel to promote. That boils down to I am so certain I am correct in all my thinking that I am sure God does not exist. But a person cannot be sure of this. Yet they are. Atheists are the counterpoints of fierce Evangelicals, certain they are right and sure of the means of arriving at their conclusions. It takes a lot of faith to be an atheist. Agnostics are much safer in saying they dont know whether God exists or not.
Mequa, you said in Post 1:
[FONT="]"I thus derive comfort from a naturalistic worldview in which the horrifying prospect concerning my friend's proposed infinity of pain, as put forward by Evangelical Christian dogma, is confidently viewed as an improbable hypothesis."
[/FONT]
[FONT="][/FONT]
But you can't know it, whether or not it appears comforting. Maybe there is something you miss in Christianity because of the dogma and unkindness you have been dealing with, but atheism, in my opinion, is a lot worse as an option, and do know, I know many Christians who, if I used them as a guide, I'd want nothing to do with Christianity or faith.
But don't kid yourself about reason being reductionist.
Naturalism is by its nature, reductionary. It assumes what can be seen is all that is there. But if there is more to life, the assumption of it is based is an error.
You wrote (Post 1):
"Not even so much vengeance as some malevolent sadism, for a God to oversee the existence of such a Hell for all non-believers as he sits on his throne - almost like a sadistic kid with an ant farm enjoying roasting his ants live over a fire."
That reminds me of the book The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis (letters of instruction written by a demon to his nephew demon about how to tempt someone to be led astray) and a book called His Infernal Majesty: Satans Ten Most Believable Lies by Dave Breese. The second lie is God is a Cosmic Sadist.
I think in assuming there is no enemy of God, you have wrongly assumed characteristics of the Enemy are characteristics of God.
That is an easy mistake to make, but it is a huge one.
I will return to Gnosticism:
Mequa wrote:
"I heard that Elaine Pagels left Evangelical Christianity for the exact same reason. A non-Christian friend died (in his case Jewish), and she was told they are in Hell, so she left Evangelicalism. That belief no longer resonated with her, nor seemed reasonable.
I prefer the Gospel of Thomas to fundamentalist Christianity. This quote, for example, is something I would say makes far more sense in terms of a form of salvation than relying on someone bleeding on a cross:
"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
As I said before, is it true? It may sound good, but is it true? If there is anger in a person and they bring forth anger will anger save them? And if they dont bring anger forth anger will destroy them? What about rage? Hate? Love? Bigotry? Sadism?
It is false. However good it sounds.
That is about the best Pagels has to offer. She does not give the full text, but analyzes it to harmonize with her thinking. Yet Pagels is not an ascetic as the original Gnostics were.
Ben Witherington wrote (in What Have They Done with Jesus?: Beyond Strange Theories and Bad HistoryWhy We Can Trust the Bible) :
"In light of the evidence of the primary sources themselves, it is puzzling why scholars such as Elaine Pagels, Karen King, Stephen Patterson, Marvin Meyer and James Robinson would find this material so exciting. None of them are actually ascetics like the original Gnostics, nor have they withdrawn from the world and anathematized the goodness of things material. Frankly, the Old Gnostics would have repudiated the new ones, and would even have rejected their revisionist take on Christian history."
Pagels's philosophy is useless. She examines only a portion of one of the Nag Hammadi works--and even the one quote she's best known for is not even true.
How about Epicurus? He encouraged people to think there is no afterlife, and also that therefore enjoy life engage in the good life. But is it true?
Atheists may find peace in believing there is no afterlife, but is it true?
Naturalism is full of untestable assumptions about reality. It's empty.
And Nietzsche?
You quote him. Understand that besides declaring God dead, Nietzsche also lied in telling people there is no truth. Do you know he even said there are no facts? Though people in despair will often turn to him, he has nothing to offer.
So often, people run across Christians who are not Christ-like. They're not even nice. And they are turned off to the Christian God because of that.
Maybe what that means is that God is willing to rescue even people who are not likable.
In C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, he has a chapter about this issue, where he talks about we can't assume because we know there are people like this that Christianity is false. How much worse may they have been without Jesus?
These apparent "better" ideas -- Atheism, Gnosticism, Epicureanism, Naturalism, and Nihilism --all things you have brought up exist on a sort of continuum.
The person assumes they can know there is no God (perhaps due to fear of Hell and damnation) so they grab fast onto atheism. Gnosticism (at least the strange new kind from Pagels) tells you you can be your own Savior. That's a lie. Epicureanism tells you to have fun without guilt, because there are no eternal consequences. People often find life very empty seeking that kind of satisfaction. Naturalism states falsehoods about existence, making assumptions, and Nihilism robs people of their dignity. Nietzsche is nobody's friend.
So continue to search. But be sure if you invite Jesus into your life, He is not the evil you see in this world.
I encourage you to search. Use truth as your light.
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