My own little rant

macher

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Oh, Sorry. Glad to oblige! I call anyone that would deny any believer the right to observe Torah as 'Torah negative' as defined by this forum's Statement of Purpose. What's you point? You don't answer my questions at all. ;)

So again, give me the scripture that says we have to check with you, the MJAA, the UMJC, or any other political organization before we can observe Torah? Or alternatively, show me where the Statement of Purpose of this forum says that we have to check with you, the MJAA, the UMJC, or any other political organization before we can observe Torah?

I didn't miss anything. You simply do not want to conform to the rules of this forum. Too bad. We voted. We won. You lose. :p

You're missing the whole point. You don't need the MJAA or UMJC to give you permission to observe Torah.

The point is the MJAA and the UMJC for a fact want to and seek to be part of the Jewish community.

If you don't care about wanting to be part of the Jewish community that's fine.
 
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Qnts2

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Oh, Sorry. Glad to oblige! I call anyone that would deny any believer the right to observe Torah as 'Torah negative' as defined by this forum's Statement of Purpose. What's you point? You don't answer my questions at all. ;)

So again, give me the scripture that says we have to check with you, the MJAA, the UMJC, or any other political organization before we can observe Torah? Or alternatively, show me where the Statement of Purpose of this forum says that we have to check with you, the MJAA, the UMJC, or any other political organization before we can observe Torah?

I didn't miss anything. You simply do not want to conform to the rules of this forum. Too bad. We voted. We won. You lose. :p

I have answered your questions.

You actually side stepped my questions.

Tal, did you intentionally return to force One Law adherence and to get rid of the pesky people who were not One Law?

As far as Torah observance, I have repeatedly said, and quoted the UMJC stating Gentiles are free to observe the law. It is a Gentiles choice.

I have also repeatedly said, if this forum wants the rules to include a required adherence to One Law theology, say so in the SoP or the name. As long as the name is Messianic Judaism, Messianic Jews will come here, and at least 90% of Messianic Jews do not believe in One Law. So, you apparently will feel obligated to call them names, and continually attack them because they are not One Law. There is absolutely no reason to simply be as deceptive as that. The choice to me is clear, either learn to accept Messianic Jews, or change the name of the forum, or the SoP to emphasize this is a One Law Only forum, and that way Messianic Jews will be far less likely to accidently come in this forum.
 
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Yahudim

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Dear Qnts2,

You misunderstand or misrepresent or both. This forum does not require that I be 'Divinely Invited' to follow Torah. It does not believe that Torah observance is 'optional' for any member here. Anything that is not Torah positive is by definition, Torah negative.

I am not judging you for your level of observance. I am judging you because your rhetoric negatively influences the Torah observance of others. Is that clear enough for you? That is where the violation of the SoP is found.

In this forum, you do not have the right to tell anyone that Torah is optional, invitation only, subject to the approval of other organizations or anything else. That statement is not Torah positive according to the SoP. Non-observance is NOT a level of observance. Professing optional observance of Torah for Gentiles is Torah negative, i.e., you don't (negative) have to follow the commandments of Yah.

It also says no one is to judge anothers level of Torah observance. It does not say anything about the belief that Torah observance is a choice is against the forum rules.

It also does not say this is a One Law forum, nor does it require believing in One Law theology. It does say it is a Messianic Judaism forum. It says Torah observant, but allows for varying levels of observance. Almost all Messianic Jews are Torah observant at differing levels.

So, in my personal opinion, your posts which label people as Torah negative, anti-Torah etc, are violating the SoP, as you can not judge another persons level of Torah observance.
 
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yedida

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It also says no one is to judge anothers level of Torah observance. It does not say anything about the belief that Torah observance is a choice is against the forum rules.

Actually it does by its wording, and I quote: "...We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. ..." Nothing about an invitation or suggestion, but As Part & Parcel of our walk

It also does not say this is a One Law forum, nor does it require believing in One Law theology. It does say it is a Messianic Judaism forum. It says Torah observant, but allows for varying levels of observance. Almost all Messianic Jews are Torah observant at differing levels.

See above.

So, in my personal opinion, your posts which label people as Torah negative, anti-Torah etc, are violating the SoP, as you can not judge another persons level of Torah observance.

So saying observing Torah is a choice is indeed against the SoP. The SoP by its wordsing states that it is as much a part of our walk as trusting in Yeshua's finished work. Just that simple. It is not a suggestion, it is not an invitation, it is not a choice - 1 John 2:3-5 says (abbreviated), "If you love me, keep my commandments."
 
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Yahudim

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I did answer your question. People of all types are welcome here as long as they follow the rules. Most are bright enough to figure out where they are, despite your misgivings.

Here is a bulletin: This is not CARM or a MJAA forum. This is a different forum. We have our own SoP. Follow the rules please.

I have answered your questions.

You actually side stepped my questions.

Tal, did you intentionally return to force One Law adherence and to get rid of the pesky people who were not One Law?

As far as Torah observance, I have repeatedly said, and quoted the UMJC stating Gentiles are free to observe the law. It is a Gentiles choice.

I have also repeatedly said, if this forum wants the rules to include a required adherence to One Law theology, say so in the SoP or the name. As long as the name is Messianic Judaism, Messianic Jews will come here, and at least 90% of Messianic Jews do not believe in One Law. So, you apparently will feel obligated to call them names, and continually attack them because they are not One Law. There is absolutely no reason to simply be as deceptive as that. The choice to me is clear, either learn to accept Messianic Jews, or change the name of the forum, or the SoP to emphasize this is a One Law Only forum, and that way Messianic Jews will be far less likely to accidently come in this forum.
 
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Yahudim

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What you propose is a difference without a distinction. I don't seek to be a part of the Jewish community. I am a part of the Jewish community. I don't seek to follow the MJAA and the UMJC. I do not believe like they do nor do I think they hold any authority at all in the life of a believer. They are political organizations. They are social clubs. What do they have to do with me?

You're missing the whole point. You don't need the MJAA or UMJC to give you permission to observe Torah.

The point is the MJAA and the UMJC for a fact want to and seek to be part of the Jewish community.

If you don't care about wanting to be part of the Jewish community that's fine.
 
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And as a Messianic Jew, I believe in Yeshua, and the Tenakh, and the NT.

Which is enough to qualify you as a Jewish Christian, or Hebrew Christian, as we used to say.

But you say I am anti-Torah.

You're dissembling. Those are not Tal's words, but your own. You have explicitly stated on numerous occasions that Messianic Judaism, as you understand it, has nothing to do with Torah. And you have also explicitly stated that the only reason you do things like a Passover seder is because of your Jewish family. You keep telling us that you observe Jewish culture, not Torah.

What other conclusion should we reach than that which you have given us?

The MJAA and the UMJC believes in Yeshua and the Tenakh and the NT, but you say the MJAA and the UMJC are anti-Torah.

Organizations don't believe anything. People believe things. And most of the people in those organizations have been trained in Christian settings. Settings which we all realize are fundamentally anti-Torah. What else should we expect of graduates from these schools?

Did you realize that, after all the hard work and money paid, if a graduate publicly takes a position contrary to that of the seminary, his degree can be revoked??? I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with the anti-Gentile trend in MJ theology over the past ten years, or so. Ever since some leaders in key positions started earning their doctorates from Fuller and Wheaton. That must be pure coincidence, right?

So, basically you are saying is that the majority of Messianic Jews, the MJAA and the UMCJ, should not be allowed to call ourselves Messianic Judaism and Messianic Jews, because you disagree with what we believe?

They can call themselves whatever they like. But we tire of you claiming that we are not part of the Messianic spectrum of theology or practice because you don't like our ethnicity. You constantly show your disregard for Yeshua and Paul by your disdain for Messianic Gentiles. You would prefer that Paul had written, "One Lord, two faiths, two mikvehs granting admittance to two different communities, one God and Father over both."
 
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macher

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What you propose is a difference without a distinction. I don't seek to be a part of the Jewish community. I am a part of the Jewish community. I don't seek to follow the MJAA and the UMJC. I do not believe like they do nor do I think they hold any authority at all in the life of a believer. They are political organizations. They are social clubs. What do they have to do with me?

Ok maybe I don't know then, are you Jewish?

What the MJAA and UMJC advocates is being part of the Jewish community because 'we are part of the Jewish community' and believe in the beliefs pertaining to Judaism as the Jewish community because we are Messianic Judaism.

You're totaling misrepresenting and side stepping what I'm saying.

Here's an example and don't take it the wrong way. My neighborhood for a time was 100% Jewish. Then non Jews started moving in and we were ok about it. They became part of our community. We helped each other. However they didn't need to practice Judaism to be part of the community. And the Jews never expected non Jews too. Now this might not be a good example. However Messianic Judaism since it's Judaism is pretty much in line with this parable. We went to shul on Saturday and they went to church.

How to relate this parable to Messianic Judaism? Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism then it can be applied the same way sort of. Except that Messianic Judaism expects Gentiles a lot more than Judaism. But Judaism wouldn't accept Gentiles as Gentiles observing Torah.

Now as a Torah observant believer that's a different story and doesn't present a misreprestation.
 
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Qnts2

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Which is enough to qualify you as a Jewish Christian, or Hebrew Christian, as we used to say.



You're dissembling. Those are not Tal's words, but your own. You have explicitly stated on numerous occasions that Messianic Judaism, as you understand it, has nothing to do with Torah. And you have also explicitly stated that the only reason you do things like a Passover seder is because of your Jewish family. You keep telling us that you observe Jewish culture, not Torah.

What other conclusion should we reach than that which you have given us?



Organizations don't believe anything. People believe things. And most of the people in those organizations have been trained in Christian settings. Settings which we all realize are fundamentally anti-Torah. What else should we expect of graduates from these schools?

Did you realize that, after all the hard work and money paid, if a graduate publicly takes a position contrary to that of the seminary, his degree can be revoked??? I'm sure that doesn't have anything to do with the anti-Gentile trend in MJ theology over the past ten years, or so. Ever since some leaders in key positions started earning their doctorates from Fuller and Wheaton. That must be pure coincidence, right?



They can call themselves whatever they like. But we tire of you claiming that we are not part of the Messianic spectrum of theology or practice because you don't like our ethnicity. You constantly show your disregard for Yeshua and Paul by your disdain for Messianic Gentiles. You would prefer that Paul had written, "One Lord, two faiths, two mikvehs granting admittance to two different communities, one God and Father over both."

So, you are also saying I am anti-Torah, even though I am Torah observant according to the SoP?

And as far as not liking your ethnicity, you are making false accusations. I am not showing any disregard for Yeshua or Paul, and I do not disdain Messianic Gentiles, again, more false accusations. So, you are engaging in Lashon Hara.

Since no one answered, yes or no, I will ask you. Before Talmidim returned to the forum, did you speak to Talmidim about his intentions of returning to this forum, and did you agree with him? Did you agree to back him up or assist him.
 
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mishkan

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So, you are also saying I am anti-Torah, even though I am Torah observant according to the SoP?

And as far as not liking your ethnicity, you are making false accusations. I am not showing any disregard for Yeshua or Paul, and I do not disdain Messianic Gentiles, again, more false accusations. So, you are engaging in Lashon Hara.

Since no one answered, yes or no, I will ask you. Before Talmidim returned to the forum, did you speak to Talmidim about his intentions of returning to this forum, and did you agree with him? Did you agree to back him up or assist him.

I won't bite. You are now muck-raking, hoping to divert attention from your fundamentally anti-Torah theology.
 
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Yahudim

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So, you are also saying I am anti-Torah, even though I am Torah observant according to the SoP?
No dear. You are dissembling again. He did not say that you are anti-Torah. He said that you are not Torah observant according to your own admission.

And as far as not liking your ethnicity, you are making false accusations. I am not showing any disregard for Yeshua or Paul, and I do not disdain Messianic Gentiles, again, more false accusations. So, you are engaging in Lashon Hara.
Quoting someone's baliefs and practices back to them is not Lashon Hara. You are clear in your statements that Gentiles should not keep Torah unless they hear a little voice from God inside their head telling them to do so. Or am I mistaken? Do we need to hear a little voice from AAMJ instead? You have said so many different things, I get confused.

Since no one answered, yes or no, I will ask you. Before Talmidim returned to the forum, did you speak to Talmidim about his intentions of returning to this forum, and did you agree with him? Did you agree to back him up or assist him.
Let me answer for you. There was no conspiracy. Feel better?
 
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Qnts2

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So saying observing Torah is a choice is indeed against the SoP. The SoP by its wordsing states that it is as much a part of our walk as trusting in Yeshua's finished work. Just that simple. It is not a suggestion, it is not an invitation, it is not a choice - 1 John 2:3-5 says (abbreviated), "If you love me, keep my commandments."

I already covered the meaning of advocate. I advocate Torah when I go into churchs and help them in a Passover seder. The forum SoP does not say state Torah observance is mandated for all Jews and Gentiles.

I was told that Torah observance meant any level of Torah observance. Being a Messianic Jew, I was considered by this forum as Torah observant.

Those who are saying I am not Torah observant, or anti-Torah, are violating the SoP.

Yedida, so far no one has answered my questions. Either Yes or No. Were you in a discussion with Tal, before his return about his intent to return and why, prior to his return in late December? If so, did you agree to support him before his return?

I am wondering at the sudden return of hostility against Messianic Jews on this forum, which started when Tal returned. His first post was in attack mode, as well as follow on posts. Particularly against Messianic Jews.
 
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Yahudim

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Ok maybe I don't know then, are you Jewish?
How do you mean that? Are you concerned with my ethnicity in Y'shua? Where is that written?

What the MJAA and UMJC advocates is being part of the Jewish community because 'we are part of the Jewish community' and believe in the beliefs pertaining to Judaism as the Jewish community because we are Messianic Judaism.
Again, why should I care what a political organization espouses? What does this have to do with me? :cool:

You're totaling misrepresenting and side stepping what I'm saying.
How? Please xplain.

Here's an example and don't take it the wrong way. My neighborhood for a time was 100% Jewish. Then non Jews started moving in and we were ok about it. They became part of our community. We helped each other. However they didn't need to practice Judaism to be part of the community. And the Jews never expected non Jews too. Now this might not be a good example. However Messianic Judaism since it's Judaism is pretty much in line with this parable. We went to shul on Saturday and they went to church.
I don't take it wrong. I don't take it at all. I do both. I go where I can serve. How is this relevant? :doh:

How to relate this parable to Messianic Judaism? Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism then it can be applied the same way sort of. Except that Messianic Judaism expects Gentiles a lot more than Judaism. But Judaism wouldn't accept Gentiles as Gentiles observing Torah.
So I should care? My observance is between me and my Creator. His acceptance is paramount. :bow:

Now as a Torah observant believer that's a different story and doesn't present a misreprestation.
Huh? :confused:
 
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Yahudim

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I already covered the meaning of advocate. I advocate Torah when I go into churchs and help them in a Passover seder. The forum SoP does not say state Torah observance is mandated for all Jews and Gentiles.
Oh goody! A Torah advocate! Now you are willing to state publically, "This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples." C'mon Sis, repeat after me!

I was told that Torah observance meant any level of Torah observance. Being a Messianic Jew, I was considered by this forum as Torah observant.
Except that you said that you were not Torah observant, you were culturally observant. There is a difference you know. Some of my friends are cowboys. Some of my friends just dress like cowboys. ;)

Those who are saying I am not Torah observant, or anti-Torah, are violating the SoP.
I guess you had better stop admitting you aren't Torah observant then. Be careful. You could get in trouble. Non-observance is not a level of Torah observance. Neither is dressing up like cowboy.

Yedida, so far no one has answered my questions. Either Yes or No. Were you in a discussion with Tal, before his return about his intent to return and why, prior to his return in late December? If so, did you agree to support him before his return?
Asked and answered. There is no conspiracy against you. You poor thing. You are overwrought.

I am wondering at the sudden return of hostility against Messianic Jews on this forum, which started when Tal returned. His first post was in attack mode, as well as follow on posts. Particularly against Messianic Jews.
No dear. You are dissembling again. (Great word, David. Thanks!) There is not hostility against Messianic Jews here. They are and have always been welcome. Just hostility against anyone that advocates anyone, Jew or Gentile, shouldn't keep the commandments of Yah and the instruction of His Anointed.
 
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macher

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How do you mean that? Are you concerned with my ethnicity in Y'shua? Where is that written?

I was asking because you said you were part of the Jewish community.

talmidim said:
Again, why should I care what a political organization espouses? What does this have to do with me? :cool:

Exactly. However Judaism and Messianic Judaism are pretty much in line.

talmidim said:
So I should care? My observance is between me and my Creator. His acceptance is paramount. :bow:

Exactly. What I'm saying is that if you want to claim to be part of the Jewish community in which Messianic Judaism seeks, then it's contrary to both Judaism(Jewish community) and Messianic Judaism.

Messianic Judaism is designed to be part of the same Jewish community because they both share similar beliefs, right?

However you said why should I care. And you're right it's between you and our Creator. But that doesn't share the Jewish community and Messianic Jewish community beliefs.

Am I against you obersving Torah? Absolutely not. But I'm against you trying to be part of the beliefs, customs and the like that both Messianic Judaism and the Jewish community share because you are labeling yourself as such. It's like your false advertising.

Label yourself as a Torah observant believer which doesn't denote Judaism and that is more truthful especially to my brethren in the flesh. Prayfully if my parents or other family members happen to come to this forum they will see the right kind of advertising.

Is the Jewish community wrong?
 
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yedida

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I already covered the meaning of advocate. I advocate Torah when I go into churchs and help them in a Passover seder. The forum SoP does not say state Torah observance is mandated for all Jews and Gentiles.

I was told that Torah observance meant any level of Torah observance. Being a Messianic Jew, I was considered by this forum as Torah observant.

Those who are saying I am not Torah observant, or anti-Torah, are violating the SoP.

Yedida, so far no one has answered my questions. Either Yes or No. Were you in a discussion with Tal, before his return about his intent to return and why, prior to his return in late December? If so, did you agree to support him before his return?

I am wondering at the sudden return of hostility against Messianic Jews on this forum, which started when Tal returned. His first post was in attack mode, as well as follow on posts. Particularly against Messianic Jews.


There is no conspiracy going on here.
 
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Yahudim

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Hey, Yedida, psssst. Whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, etZion, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, Qnts2, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, Macher, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, David, whisper, whisper, whisper, Tirshri1, whisper. That's all.
There is no conspiracy going on here.
 
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yedida

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Hey, Yedida, psssst. Whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, etZion, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, Qnts2, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, Macher, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, David, whisper, whisper, whisper, Tirshri1, whisper. That's all.


You whispered more to Qnts2 than to me or anyone else. What'd ya say? Huh? Tell me!! That's not right! Where's my binky? :cry:You're not playing fair!
 
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Note, One Law is a branch of Messianic theology. Not Messianic Judaism theology.

This is deceitful, at best, making use of private interpretations and customization of the terms. I understand your point only because I have taken note of another post where you clarified your usage more honestly.

As you are defining "Messianic", you refer to the "Hebrew Roots" teachers that have become so popular in the past several years. This includes people like Jim Staley, Rico Cortes, Moshe K, and a number of others whose names escape me at the moment. These people identify and promulgate a lot of excellent information relating to the Hebraic background of the Bible. But they never identify with the broader Jewish community or traditional Judaism.

Some have engaged in sloppy speech, and referred to Hebrew Roots teachings as "Messianic", but that is not the generally accepted definition of the term. At least, not yet.

There are promoters of full Gentile integration into the Jewish community among both Hebrew Roots teachers and Messianic Judaism teachers, among Jews and Gentiles. It is a perspective--a doctrinal position that attempts to explain a number of Biblical ideas and how they can be implemented. The view is not the sole possession of any particular group, whether ethnic or ideological.

And very few Messianic Jews adhere to One Law theology. To my knowledge, there are 10 or fewer.

I'd like to see the massive poll you are citing that backs up such statistics. Your personal experience is not universal, by any stretch.

To justify your theological views, you consistently engage in three sorts of arguments that are completely invalid:

1. appeal to authorities
2. appeal numbers
3. emotional appeal

These sorts of arguments are routinely identified by philosophers and rhetoricians as inconclusive, at best.

I find it quite odd that you never address the one law concept from anything like a Biblical basis. The absence of Biblical support for your ideas screams volumes to those who are listening, and waiting for you to step up to the plate with an actual.

Are you familiar with the expression, "a shanda fur de goyim"? That's what I see you and others doing here in this forum. You prefer to air your personal fears and animosity here when you could be helping visitors get a better grasp of Jews and Judaism, and their importance in understanding the Bible more fully.

Or perhaps it is your whole intention to deter Gentiles and secular/Christian Jews from becoming involved in Messianic Judaism? That would seem to better explain your interactions on this forum.

There are thousands of Messianic Jews who are members of the MJAA and UMJC and AMC combined.

Yes, there are. I have held membership in both organizations, as well, over the years. You should realize, though, that membership in an organization does not necessarily mean one agrees with every point on a written doctrinal statement. Especially when that statement has been revised in the last five or ten years. Some people just find it easier to keep identifying with "the group". It says almost nothing about individual views on specific doctrinal points.
 
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