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That´s fine and dandy, but it does not an argument make.
Because your experience is not necessarily accurate.
That´s not what I criticized as a false dichotomy. I was talking about the dichotomy "either chosen or forced upon". Determinism means neither.
What would you expect to experience if you knew your "choices" were the deterministic outcomes of quintillions of wave-function collapses?
Granted but what evidence is there that I am not seeing myself making choices when I think I am?
Unless I am part of the determining factor, I don't understand how my actions can be both my choice and predetermined.
They can´t. All I have been trying to tell you is that predetermined does not equal "forced upon". "Forced upon" implies an entity who forces you, which is not necessarily the idea of determinism, and certainly not mine. If you want to seriously discuss an idea it would be better to abstain from keeping paraphrasing it with a term the holder of the idea keeps telling you is not accurately describing it.
elman said:
It is obvious that I can make choices.
The evidence on the table is what we experience.
I have no experience with my actions being predetermined and my not be able to chose between different options. So far as I can tell that experience is impossible to obtain in this world.
It had better be pretty strong logic for me to believe I am being fooled by what I observe. I have not seen that kind of logic presented.
If my actions are not forced upon me and if I can determine what my actions are doing to be, then I see no determinism at work. Perhaps we are not dealing with the same definition of determinism.
Then tell me what the correct defintion is if mine is incorrect.
I cannot prove a negative is what people say all the time about God not existing. I cannot prove my choices are my own, but I have no reason to believe they are not.
Yes, I know, it is obvious to you. So what?
Hang on. So far we have merely established that you feel you experience it.
Since you can´t even tell me how this experience woudl differ from the experience you have you can´t even know what of the two options you experience.
Yes, we had that discussion countless times. I have given you the logic behind it, but you preferred to cling to your circular reasoning.
Yes, probably we aren´t. The determinism concept this thread is about, however, can clearly be discerned from the OP, the OPers follow up posts, my responses and the responses of others who tried to explain that which he felt he was missing.
It´s not about correct or non-correct. You can define it as you wish. You just don´t address the notion that is discussed in this thread, then.
Because the entire edifice of choice collapses when scrutinized. You've already presented the best defense for "free choice" - that you don't *feel* like your choices are determined - and it's pathetic. You cling desperately to "free choice" because religion and jurisprudence demand it.
So I have evidence my decision are not controlled outside of me or other than by me.
Which is all that is possible.
Correct. All I can know is what I see in front of me. I have no reason to believe it is other than as I see it.
I don't recall the logic but it did not convince me I am not seeing what I think I am seeing and experiencing. What has circular reasoning got to do with your logic not being convincing enough to override what I see?
My responses are I don't believe your causal chains are all there is if you are leaving my decisions out of the causal chains.
Why is it that your definition of determinism which I have not yet seen is the correct one?
What is so hard about that is you keep saying I have no ability to effect my world by my own choices and I do. I do it all the time.
No, you don´t. You just feel it is so.
...but doesn´t allow for the general "we" you used.
"Choice" is nothing you can see, just as "being determined" is nothing you can see. They are interpretations of what you see.
Nothing. Your circular logic is completely independent from what I say.
And the question is: is there such thing as a decision for you to make?
I didn´t say it was the correct one. Actually I said the very opposite: That there is no such thing as a "correct" definition. But if you are responding to a definition that is not mine you are not addressing my concept.
This part of the discussion was about your idea that determinism means something is forced upon you, and I told you that this is not my idea. If you argue against things being forced upon you you don´t argue against my idea. That was all.
Because there is no third choice; there is caused and there is uncaused. "Chosen" entails some inscrutable third category whose contents are defined almost entirely by a feeling that neither of the other two categories is emotionally satisfying.
