My Issues with Feminism

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Puffinstuff

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And yes, I think a lot of women do not value their own contributions...for many of us it's because men don't value our contributions. Women get their sense of importance, their sense of identity and value primarily from their husbands (I am speaking generally, but as believers, we also get this from knowing who we are in Christ). If a man devalues (overtly or by taking her for granted) his wife, she will feel devalued. So yes, for many of us, we do not value our contributions for the simple reason that our husbands don't. How many times do men thank their wives for cooking dinner or cleaning the bathroom? Yet when men do something at home, they often want recognition for it, and if they do it on a regular basis, they feel like they are being taken advantage of, being used as a maid, etc.

This is true.On top of there is a real economic value tied to this.If you don't get paid then you are less valuable.Not to mention if you don't get paid you have less power or freedom .So you are undervalued with no money.You are a dependent.Its no surprise women are swarming the workplace.Being dependant on a man who does not only not value you for your contribution to the family but then also has power over /above you to say he calls the shots is more than enough reason for women to not volunteer for that role .

I think eventually there will be no such thing as a stay at home mom.And its not because its not an important or valid occupation.But because the risks verses the rewards will become so out of balance that only a fool would choose it.
 
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The article was written in 1969, when most women stayed home and took care of home and children, and men were disinterested in both. It was up to women to keep the children seen and not heard. Today things are much different, and yes, most men are stepping up and being more involved at home. Often this is because women also work outside the home now, and also because "science" is becoming a social god and science says homes are healthier when men are involved with their wives and children. Things are different now than they were in 1969.

And yes, I think a lot of women do not value their own contributions...for many of us it's because men don't value our contributions. Women get their sense of importance, their sense of identity and value primarily from their husbands (I am speaking generally, but as believers, we also get this from knowing who we are in Christ). If a man devalues (overtly or by taking her for granted) his wife, she will feel devalued. So yes, for many of us, we do not value our contributions for the simple reason that our husbands don't. How many times do men thank their wives for cooking dinner or cleaning the bathroom? Yet when men do something at home, they often want recognition for it, and if they do it on a regular basis, they feel like they are being taken advantage of, being used as a maid, etc.

I am fortunate that my husband appreciates my contributions and that he shares in the housework. I am even more fortunate that his perception is not that he is being taken advantage of just because he sometimes has to do more work around here than I do. I make sure to express my gratitude for his contributions.

But this is not 1969. Back then, I could see how my mom was expected to have dinner on the table at 5:30 every day without fail, how he would come home and spend his weekend watching sports while mom had to keep us kids quiet, and how he was so removed from the home that he had no idea how to buy Christmas gifts for us - he had no idea what we liked or what was age-appropriate. Back then, dad expected home made dessert every day, and when it seemed mom had too much time on her hands, he decided she needed to tend a garden and grow our own food. Things were different when this article was written, so it would be inaccurate to suggest the article applies in its entirety today.

Back then it was very true that women did not benefit from social systems. Today we benefit more. And saying "personal is political" is true as well, because of the policies that guide what women qualify for versus what men qualify for - including social expectations. Yes, the same is true for men, but it is not recognized as such because it is men who make policies in favour of men. It's the standard, so it is okay for women to stand up and recognize that personal is political because it was not women who developed policies for women.

Article four describes locus of blame and responsibility and points out the truth that men who are feminists are (in 1969)treated as women - or the underclass. Remember how some boys were accused of "throwing like a girl" when they played ball? Same idea. And yes, it was true. But in reality, the Bible calls us to treat each other as brothers and sisters, to treat each other with respect, to consider others better than ourselves - and that is not limited to how men treat men. It includes how men are to consider their wives. So just because it is not biblical doesn't mean it does not reflect some historical and biblical truth.

I hear some of your concerns, but they don't address mine.

In a sense I'm not trying to argue about feminism here. I'm simply stating my own point of view. I am open to other ideas but I have heard views like yours before on this subject and with all due respect they do not nor do they ever address the concerns of men about feminism. I don't see feminists ever saying "yes it's true--the average man is considered expendable."

This cements my view that any future marriage I have would have to be preceded with the understanding of a prenuptial agreement. What I see is that feminism earnestly promotes the idea of its own philosophies being the only way towards goodwill, in spite of the fact that the evidence I have seen is that while feminism addresses certain problems it doesn't have the answers to them nor the big picture surrounding them. I believe that this is an example of a social philosophy not really solving problems altogether but only approaching them in certain areas and with a generally skewed perspective that has tainted the views of women towards men and vice versa. To me it emphasizes the importance of individuals of integrity forming their own decisions based on the teachings of Christ and developing relationships surrounding those principles.
 
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ValleyGal

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I hear some of your concerns, but they don't address mine.

In a sense I'm not trying to argue about feminism here. I'm simply stating my own point of view. I am open to other ideas but I have heard views like yours before on this subject and with all due respect they do not nor do they ever address the concerns of men about feminism. I don't see feminists ever saying "yes it's true--the average man is considered expendable."

This cements my view that any future marriage I have would have to be preceded with the understanding of a prenuptial agreement. What I see is that feminism earnestly promotes the idea of its own philosophies being the only way towards goodwill, in spite of the fact that the evidence I have seen is that while feminism addresses certain problems it doesn't have the answers to them nor the big picture surrounding them. I believe that this is an example of a social philosophy not really solving problems altogether but only approaching them in certain areas and with a generally skewed perspective that has tainted the views of women towards men and vice versa. To me it emphasizes the importance of individuals of integrity forming their own decisions based on the teachings of Christ and developing relationships surrounding those principles.

Ah, well, the underlined can be seen in two ways. In marriage, men are typically not expendable because women still rely on them a lot - including financially. There is still much inequality in the dollar signs between men and women in the workforce, and the glass ceiling is still very much present, even if a few token women get through it.

In general, the underlined might be blamed more on capitalism than on feminism. The fortune 500 is now the fortune 100. Why? Because the top 100 bought out the bottom 400, so yes, men are expendable. But since capitalism is so supported in western culture, people don't get this. Men have glass ceilings too - but they are much higher than they are for women.

In the first paragraph, you say that what I'm saying does not address your concerns. I am having trouble understanding that comment, since all of my comments on this thread have been in direct response to your expressed concerns. So maybe you could clarify for me what your real concerns are.
 
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[QUOTE I don't see feminists ever saying "yes it's true--the average man is considered expendable."
]

Is it possible you don't see feminist saying that because they don't believe it?Why would someone say that if they do not believe its true just because you do?[/quote]

Of course I think they don't believe it. To me that is a major part of the problem, and a major part of why I see feminism generally as unchristian. The fact that it is characterized only as being a movement for equality for women is problematic, because that's not all it only is.

I could probably say that I belong to and support organizations that are against human trafficking, against violence towards women, and are partnered with women's shelters, and that I believe in equal rights for women while I am critical of things that are said by the feminist movement, but frankly I say this over and over again and feel my concerns are neither heard nor addressed. So that leads me to conclude that they will not be. I believe that these concerns are legitimate, but to the overwhelming number of feminists I've spoken to, they are not. What I am stating here is not my desire to debate, merely my position. I expect that in future I am likely to have posts denounced because people fear that I am stating my views in light of not wanting equal rights for women. I wanted to clear things up for those posters who see me in a good light. However if my points are not understood after much explanation, there's not much I can do about that.
 
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Puffinstuff

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Just jumping in here without reading the rest of the comments.

I think feminism is to blame for the American obesity epidemic and a host of other issues faced by modern Americans.

When you go to the hospital emergency room and they charge you $75 for an asprin? Its feminism at play I swear..When gas prices go up? Feminism again.Its a shame...It needs to be stopped.
 
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Ah, well, the underlined can be seen in two ways. In marriage, men are typically not expendable because women still rely on them a lot - including financially. There is still much inequality in the dollar signs between men and women in the workforce, and the glass ceiling is still very much present, even if a few token women get through it.

In general, the underlined might be blamed more on capitalism than on feminism. The fortune 500 is now the fortune 100. Why? Because the top 100 bought out the bottom 400, so yes, men are expendable. But since capitalism is so supported in western culture, people don't get this. Men have glass ceilings too - but they are much higher than they are for women.

In the first paragraph, you say that what I'm saying does not address your concerns. I am having trouble understanding that comment, since all of my comments on this thread have been in direct response to your expressed concerns. So maybe you could clarify for me what your real concerns are.

I'm not blaming men being expendable on feminism. I'm simply saying that it is not really acknowledged by feminists generally. And it seems to me that you're saying in your posts that what is being said in the Redstocking Manifesto is perfectly fair, when I'm saying that not only is it not, but that it perpetuates divisions between men and women.
 
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seeingeyes

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I'm not blaming men being expendable on feminism. I'm simply saying that it is not really acknowledged by feminists generally. And it seems to me that you're saying in your posts that what is being said in the Redstocking Manifesto is perfectly fair, when I'm saying that not only is it not, but that it perpetuates divisions between men and women.

Actually, it's acknowledged in the very manifesto you posted:

"Male supremacy is the oldest, most basic form of domination. All other forms of exploitation and oppression (racism, capitalism, imperialism, etc.) are extensions of male supremacy: men dominate women, a few men dominate the rest."
 
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ValleyGal

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I'm not blaming men being expendable on feminism. I'm simply saying that it is not really acknowledged by feminists generally. And it seems to me that you're saying in your posts that what is being said in the Redstocking Manifesto is perfectly fair, when I'm saying that not only is it not, but that it perpetuates divisions between men and women.

It definitely was fair and accurate in 1969.

I guess I choose to see the manifesto in a positive light, one that has made numerous beneficial strides for society - even men's benefit - and see how certain principles can definitely be aligned with biblical principles. I try to measure things against scripture, and yes, many of the principles are scriptural and aligned with Jesus' teaching. I choose to see how it can bring men and women closer in marriage - as demonstrated in my first post on this thread, rather than cause division. I backed it up with biblical principles. I suppose it is perception and how we all choose to interpret things. I do not expect you to adopt my way of thinking, but hearing and understanding it is beneficial.
 
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Verve

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^_^

And pot too!

I hadn't thought about that one. This is going to drag me through the thought process of coming up with an argument for feminism means increased cultural drug use...

When you go to the hospital emergency room and they charge you $75 for an asprin? Its feminism at play I swear..When gas prices go up? Feminism again.Its a shame...It needs to be stopped.

Actually, in some ways our economy is worse because of feminism.
 
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It definitely was fair and accurate in 1969.

I guess I choose to see the manifesto in a positive light, one that has made numerous beneficial strides for society - even men's benefit - and see how certain principles can definitely be aligned with biblical principles. I try to measure things against scripture, and yes, many of the principles are scriptural and aligned with Jesus' teaching. I choose to see how it can bring men and women closer in marriage - as demonstrated in my first post on this thread, rather than cause division. I backed it up with biblical principles. I suppose it is perception and how we all choose to interpret things. I do not expect you to adopt my way of thinking, but hearing and understanding it is beneficial.

To be honest--since you talked about transparency earlier--I'm afraid of it. Not because I might lose power or anything, since I hardly have any to speak of, but because I've so often seen these attitudes lead to real injustice and ill treatment. And when I've protested, I've found that the injustice gets justified, at the very least by people who say 'those were exceptions'. So the manifesto dismisses the concerns of say men who have been abused or ill treated by women as being aberrations. What I read in that is that men can expect no justice from women because women claim to be powerless with regard to men. Therefore if men did receive ill treatment at the hands of women--it didn't really happen.

It's probably easier to see it in a positive life because, to be blunt, it lets you off the hook. It requires nothing of women except that they state their preferences; it requires that men give up everything with the expectation of nothing.

My concerns would not dismiss in any way that women should have equal rights with men. I disagree with certain parts of it and will continue to do so.
 
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Hetta

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I hadn't thought about that one. This is going to drag me through the thought process of coming up with an argument for feminism means increased cultural drug use...
You are not supposed to "come up with an argument" about these things. You are supposed to look at the evidence objectively.
 
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Actually, it's acknowledged in the very manifesto you posted:

"Male supremacy is the oldest, most basic form of domination. All other forms of exploitation and oppression (racism, capitalism, imperialism, etc.) are extensions of male supremacy: men dominate women, a few men dominate the rest."

Except that this absolves women of any involvement in class or monetary systems. In fact what it is saying is that men are entirely responsible for the wrongs of civilization, as though women were never complicit at all, and never can be.

I can't help but think of the White Feather Girls during WWI. Did someone make them hand out white feathers to young men who didn't want to fight in the war? Isn't that complicity? But what feminism says is that the patriarchy made them do it.
 
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Verve

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"Previous research shows that youths who perceive that their parents disapprove
of substance use and who report that their parents are involved
in their day-to-day activities are less likely than those who do not to use alcohol, tobacco, or illicit drugs."

- http://www.samhsa.gov/data/2k9/159/ParentInvolvementHTML.pdf

Parental involvement has decreased since feminism and the societal expectation of two working parents.

If you're not there when your kids get out of school and can't see them off, if you're not available during their school breaks to build that relationship with them...you're more likely to have a kid that uses recreational drugs.


 
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Verve

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Evidence, please.

Prior to feminism many families would live on one paycheck.
Any secondary income was usually discretionary.

It was expected that a woman would stay home and raise children.

When the generation of feminism came along they flooded the job market, not really creating so many "new jobs" but instead making competition for existing jobs more fierce.

This meant that employers were able to lower wages and get employees at a cheaper rate. If one person wouldn't take it, surely another will.

This meant that both men and women were working but getting less combined income than they would if there were less people in the market and two people were working at previous pay rates.

Now there isn't much of a choice but for both the man and woman in a marriage to work. It wasn't expected of our generation to have many kids, much less leave the workforce to care for them. The economy doesn't really allow for it either. It's nearly impossible for the majority of Americans to survive on the paycheck of one spouse with children involved.
 
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LinkH

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thankful,

Interesting point. Economically, it sounds like feminism worked out well for employers, but poorly for workers.

I had been taught that the US's economic prosperity of the '50's and '60's was due to a favorable exchange rate because of the Marshall Plan and European countries paying back debt and pushing our exchange rate lower. That made our goods cheaper on the world market. Many countries were also rebuilding after the war and there was a lot of economic activity. I had thought the higher wages in terms of buying power back then had to do with the increased demand for economic output. But maybe the higher wages back then relative to today for working folks had a lot to do with the fact that the workforce was primarily male.

If the economy is based on two parents working, that does depress wages and makes it hard for the family that wants to go against the flow and have only one working parent. I do see value in living really frugally to allow for the mother to be the primary caregiver, especially for the smaller children. We've done that.
 
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