My Galileo Challenge

[AV1611VET]

Doesn't seem so -- but you can find the entire article that J. cut and pasted from here: https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-galileo-affair.html

Thank you, sir!

 

[TLK Valentine]

Thank you, sir!

You're welcome.

I would also like to point out, for the record, that I do not, as Justatruthseeker falsely claims, "hate the Church." Indeed, I can appreciate the difficult position there were in at the time, what with the likes of Luther and his Reformation gaining ground.

The Catholic Church seriously believed that they were facing an existential threat -- and, like anyone else fighting for their survival against a (real or perceived) threat, took serious actions... some good (the formation of the Jesuits under Ignatius of Loyola, for example; militant, yes, but strong on education), and others, well.... not so much...

 

[Justatruthseeker]

You're welcome.

I would also like to point out, for the record, that I do not, as Justatruthseeker falsely claims, "hate the Church." Indeed, I can appreciate the difficult position there were in at the time, what with the likes of Luther and his Reformation gaining ground.

The Catholic Church seriously believed that they were facing an existential threat -- and, like anyone else fighting for their survival against a (real or perceived) threat, took serious actions... some good (the formation of the Jesuits under Ignatius of Loyola, for example; militant, yes, but strong on education), and others, well.... not so much...

No, you clearly hate it, it can be seen in your words.

All people make mistakes, like dropping nuclear weapons on civilian populations when you feel threatened.....

Some decisions are good, and others, well..... not so much.....

 

[Justatruthseeker]

It was Galileo's instrument that showed him a heliocentric system... the Catholic Church was certainly eager to "correct" him.

Your reasonings don’t hold. The Jesuits looked and agreed. His fellow philosophers refused to look.

Up until the point he insulted the Pope the pope had been supporting him with a stipend, had funded the publishing of Copernicus’ books (which suggested Heliocentricism).

If it was Heliocentricism the church wouldn’t allow, why defend and fund Copernicus’ books that started it all? Remember, Galelio only made observations which supported Copernicus’ model of a sun centered solar system.

Why would you not just fund, but support the model you say they clearly would not accept by helping him to print and deseminate the knowledge?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I have to read up more on this.
I can't remember that the Pope supported him.

Start here.

https://www.astronomynotes.com/history/GalileoAffair.html

 

[TLK Valentine]

No, you clearly hate it, it can be seen in your words.

I can't help what you see; you'll see it whether it's there or not.

All people make mistakes, like dropping nuclear weapons on civilian populations when you feel threatened.....

Your interpretation of the events WWII is whimsical, to say the least.

 

[Ophiolite]

It's easy to blame the Catholic church for Galileo's predicament; but how many scientists in Galileo's day opposed Galileo's heliocentric model of the solar system?

How long was it from the time Galileo presented his ideas to the time consensus of opinion occurred in his favor?

I'm disappointed. I hoped the Challenge would involve dropping you and Dad from the Tower of Pisa and seeing which of you proved more effective at denying the Theory of Gravity.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I can't help what you see; you'll see it whether it's there or not.



Your interpretation of the events WWII is whimsical, to say the least.

You just proved my point. You see only bad for religion, but the United States dropping a nuclear weapon on civilian populations doesn't phase you one bit.......

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I'm disappointed. I hoped the Challenge would involve dropping you and Dad from the Tower of Pisa and seeing which of you proved more effective at denying the Theory of Gravity.

I don't recall AV or Dad ever denying gravity.....

If one did they might want to instead drop you off of the tower so they could observe the results and correct any misconceptions....

 

[Ophiolite]

I don't recall AV or Dad ever denying gravity.....

If one did they might want to instead drop you off of the tower so they could observe the results and correct any misconceptions....

I'm sorry the subtlety and deep background references of my post went over your head. I'm equally sorry that the clarity of my post passed you by. Please remind me where I suggested that AV or Dad denied gravity. I'll save you the trouble. I didn't. I clearly suggested - just look it up, but this time try reading what is there, not what you think is there - that they might deny the Theory of Gravity. I hope you understand that there is a world of difference between gravity and any theory that seeks to explain it. Just as there is a world of difference between evolution and any theory that seeks to explain it.

It's late here, so I'm just going to drop off.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I'm sorry the subtlety and deep background references of my post went over your head. I'm equally sorry that the clarity of my post passed you by. Please remind me where I suggested that AV or Dad denied gravity.


I'll save you the trouble. I didn't. I clearly suggested - just look it up, but this time try reading what is there, not what you think is there - that they might deny the Theory of Gravity. I hope you understand that there is a world of difference between gravity and any theory that seeks to explain it. Just as there is a world of difference between evolution and any theory that seeks to explain it.

It's late here, so I'm just going to drop off.

Neither one if dropped would "defy" the theory of gravity. But still, if they dropped you instead any misconceptions they might have would be cleared up, while if you dropped them, they could never have their errors about other subjects corrected.... So I still insist dropping you would be for the best, so that AV and Dad have time to correct their mistakes.....

And the proper word would be defy, not deny.....

So perhaps had you used proper English........

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sorry the subtlety and deep background references of my post went over your head.

Or maybe you've forgotten the many times I've said this:

1. Bible says X, science says X = go with X
2. Bible says X, science says Y = go with X
3. Bible says Ø, science says Y = go with Y
4. Bible says Ø, science says Ø = speculate

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Or maybe you've forgotten the many times I've said this:

1. Bible says X, science says X = go with X
2. Bible says X, science says Y = go with X
3. Bible says Ø, science says Y = go with Y
4. Bible says Ø, science says Ø = speculate

A good starting point but I only see one problem with #3. Every time science has said y, it has eventually, even if it took 200 years, ended up not being y.......

Not that I am against science, just interpretation of the data....

 

[TLK Valentine]

You just proved my point. You see only bad for religion,

Who said I see only bad for religion? Oh, right... you.

For a moment there, I was concerned.

but the United States dropping a nuclear weapon on civilian populations doesn't phase you one bit.......

For a person who smugly lectures others to study history, it wouldn't hurt you to study it yourself.


Under the "just war" doctrine, The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki unquestionably satisfies two of the three requirements -- proportionality and necessity -- but falls short in one... distinction.

Now, your own gross misrepresentation of the facts aside (the US did not merely "feel threatened" by the Empire of Japan), the question becomes, do I forgive the US' error in one tenet of jus in bello because it satisfied the other two? Under the circumstances, I can conditionally (thus correcting your other false statement that I'm "not phased one bit") forgive.

Perhaps, given the alternatives, you might too, someday. Or don't, and let your hatred of the US become clearer.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Who said I see only bad for religion? Oh, right... you.

For a moment there, I was concerned.



For a person who smugly lectures others to study history, it wouldn't hurt you to study it yourself.


Under the "just war" doctrine, The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki unquestionably satisfies two of the three requirements -- proportionality and necessity -- but falls short in one... distinction.

Now, your own gross misrepresentation of the facts aside (the US did not merely "feel threatened" by the Empire of Japan), the question becomes, do I forgive the US' error in one tenet of jus in bello because it satisfied the other two? Under the circumstances, I can conditionally (thus correcting your other false statement that I'm "not phased one bit") forgive.

Perhaps, given the alternatives, you might too, someday. Or don't, and let your hatred of the US become clearer.

The one by the Catholic church????

Well then, under the just war doctrine, since you claim the church was at war with science..........

Whatever it takes you to feel good about snuffing out millions of unarmed people in the greatest act of terrorism ever displayed.....

ter·ror·ism
ˈterəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: terrorism
the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

hatred of the US? I love the USA, it's the only place where real freedom is allowed. It's the best country on this planet. That doesn't mean I think everything we have done is excusable......

In fact, I admit I detest the Catholic church... it's a den of wolves teaching false doctrines. But that doesn't mean I think everything it has done is inexcusable....

 

[AV1611VET]

A good starting point but I only see one problem with #3. Every time science has said y, it has eventually, even if it took 200 years, ended up not being y.......

That's a good point.

You just can't trust science to get you to Heaven, can you!?

(And for Pete's sake, don't liftoff if the weather is cold; no matter what they tell you! )

 

[Justatruthseeker]

That's a good point.

You just can't trust science to get you to Heaven, can you!?

(And for Pete's sake, don't liftoff if the weather is cold; no matter what they tell you! )

Guess they needed more deicing, despite the "science" saying it was "a go for launch".......

 

[TLK Valentine]

The one by the Catholic church????

Well then, under the just war doctrine, since you claim the church was at war with science..........

I made no such claim -- you're misrepresenting the truth (again) to justify your hatred.

hatred of the US? I love the USA, it's the only place where real freedom is allowed. It's the best country on this planet. That doesn't mean I think everything we have done is excusable......

And yet, you didn't have any problem grossly misrepresenting the history of WWII for no other reason than to paint the US in a bad light -- hardly an act of love.

 

[Ophiolite]

And the proper word would be defy, not deny.....

So perhaps had you used proper English........

Please don't presume to crtitique my English when you very critique exposes your own limitations in the language. One does not defy a theory (unless one is suffering a mental illness that confuses the senses). One denies a theory.

One might attempt to defy gravity - trapeze artists and pilots have some measure of success on a daily basis - and one may deny the theory of gravity. Once again, despite my guidance, you seem unable to distinguish between a concept or occurence and a theory intended to explain that concept or occurence. I strongly suggest you quit now while you only look foolish.

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's a good point.

You just can't trust science to get you to Heaven, can you!?

Nah... just go to Valhalla and turn left.