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My Evolution Challenge

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kharisym

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Bacteria remaining bacteria. Oh. The sterility of random mutation. Ouch. The encoding of an adaptation feature in DNA, yow zerrs Batman. The limits of adaptation. zoinks. Yes, so much denial of modern science. Lol.

ERVs
fossil record
observed mutation
observed speciation
butterflies
successful predictions
fossil layers
atavisms
and more

Of course we've already established this as futile. You'll click maybe one or two links then hand-wave everything with some logical fallacy or strawman because you seem to think that arguments for evolution are an attack on god when in reality they're just attacks on the willful ignorance that you somehow managed to equate with your sense of identity.

If you're up to it, post your evidence for creationism, I need a good laugh. I'm quite sure they'll be full of equivocation, circular logic, strawmen, confirmation bias, or any other logical fallacy creationists keep plopping about the echo-chamber.
 
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sandwiches

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Creation-ism in its purity is
1: The universe was intelligently designed
2: Life was intelligently designed (see 1 Cor 15:39)

This is Creation-ism. This we are finding is in compliance with scientific evidence. Darwinism, or the assertion that chance can take bacteria to men has asserted vestigial structures, junk DNA, random mutational origin, unlimited adaptation. All disproven or in the process of being debunked. Darwin observed that orgainsims adapt. Everything gathered after that,current and developing, up to the 21st Century, is creationism.

Since only a tiny minority of scientists are in favor of creationism, do you believe that the majority of scientists in geology, astronomy, genetics, biology, paleontology, etc are either deliberately deceiving people, just making honest mistakes, or something else altogether?
 
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sandwiches

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ERVs
fossil record
observed mutation
observed speciation
butterflies
successful predictions
fossil layers
atavisms
and more

Of course we've already established this as futile. You'll click maybe one or two links then hand-wave everything with some logical fallacy or strawman because you seem to think that arguments for evolution are an attack on god when in reality they're just attacks on the willful ignorance that you somehow managed to equate with your sense of identity.

If you're up to it, post your evidence for creationism, I need a good laugh. I'm quite sure they'll be full of equivocation, circular logic, strawmen, confirmation bias, or any other logical fallacy creationists keep plopping about the echo-chamber.

You can bet his response will be another baseless assertion about science having proven evolution wrong and creationism correct. And that'll pretty much be it.
 
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Split Rock

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Mamma mia!
1. Has absolutely nothing to do with the Creation Week.
It is a prominent assertion made by the majority of creationists. Stop moving the goalposts.
2. As stipulated in Genesis 1.
As debunked by the evidence for common ancestry.
3. Cannot be ascertained by Genesis 1 alone; requires input from science.
Has been debunked here numerous times. The earth has a history longer than 6,100 years. Case closed.
4. Maybe not geocentric today -- but certainly geoprominent.
We are on a planet of an ordinary star on the outskirts of one arm of a standard barred spiral galaxy. The universe is not "geoprominent," whatever that means.
5. "Kinds" can't be defined; let alone debunked.
The term cannot be defined because it is vague nonsense. Common ancestry debunks it completely.
 
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Split Rock

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Amen! - What's left of the theory of evolution is an embarrassment to so-called science.
What do you know about science? Maybe I should explain to you about police work...hmm?

The theory of evolution would already be dead and buried if not for the need of saving face and those making money with the continued junk.
The theory of evolution would be dead and buried if it did not work.


The fabulous discovery is that Genesis is 100% accurate.
When was this discovery made? I must have missed the memo..

God created all, exactly as He said that He did.
He did not say anything. Genesis was written by Men, not God.


We've had the truth these thousands of years from the Holy Bible, and it stands as the absolute truth that can't be refuted.
Let's say it is the "absolute truth"... is your interpretation of the Bible also "absolute truth?"
 
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Anaximander

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Amen! - What's left of the theory of evolution is an embarrassment to so-called science. The theory of evolution would already be dead and buried if not for the need of saving face and those making money with the continued junk.

Besides your rhetoric, could you please list the evidence that biological evolution has been denied by the scientific community? List the peer reviewed literature claiming this please.

The fabulous discovery is that Genesis is 100% accurate. God created all, exactly as He said that He did. We've had the truth these thousands of years from the Holy Bible, and it stands as the absolute truth that can't be refuted.

I agree with this, but it has nothing to do with young earth creationism or anti-evolution denial. Since there are over 30,000 Christian denominations believing their particular interpretation is correct, chances are yours is not. The flat earthers tout the most literal interpretation, so is theirs correct? The geocentrists also believe theirs is correct, and I bet it conforms to the "plain truth" much better than yours.

best,
 
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Greg1234

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This is not entirely random.

YouTube - New research showing that human endogenous retroviruses do not prove evolution

This is also heavily based on the idea of junk DNA. We are progressing away from this idea.

The fossil record is consistent with a creation. Asserting that the earth came before life forms is not evidence for chemical evolution either. Texts already explain the "preparation" and man threatened to be overun by "large beasts". With bacteria remaining bacteria, and other scientific evidence validating creationism, this is a baseless assertion. Further, when you use the fossil record, be sure to include everything.
E-coli mutation and evolution - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
Pay close attention to this quote.
A huge breakthrough in understanding how proteins control DNA and life came with the work of Francois Jacob and Jacques Monod in the 1960s. It was known then that bacteria could digest different types of sugars, including the most common kind, called glucose, as well as another, much less common sugar, called lactose, which is found in milk. Intriguingly, when bacteria were grown in the presence of glucose, they couldn’t use lactose. Only in the absence of glucose and the presence of lactose could they digest the milk sugar. When glucose was missing, the bacteria made proteins that could pull lactose into the cell and metabolize it, but when no lactose was around, the bacteria didn’t make those proteins. This was a very clever trick that made great biological sense, since in normal conditions the bacterium would waste energy if it manufactured proteins that could metabolize only a rarely encountered sugar. The interesting question was, how did the bacteria “know” when to switch on the genes for making the proteins?
Adaptation involving enzymes, wing length, or reproductive faculties(what man calls speciation) are not problems for creationism. Further, you should be aware of the broad definition under which speciation is recorded.

YouTube - There are no observed instances of speciation

Including:
Like the title says
Some of the studies posted on talkorigins:


1. "Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of the chromosome count, from the original stock. (Note that polyploids are generally considered to be a separate "race" of the same species as the original stock)" --talkorigins


Well, it says on the page itself that the polypolids are considered a seperate race that is a subspecies of the original, thus not a new species.
Therefore no new species was formed. Only the authors of talkorigins know why this study is presented as evidence of speciation.


2. "Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island.(Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology. It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been performed with the parent stock.)" --talkorigins


Morophology is not a criteria of speciation in MAMMALS. Rather it is the ability to breed and produce two generations of fertile offsprings.


3. "Speciation by hybridization in phasmids and other insects, Luciano Bullini and Giuseppe Nascetti"


The research says nothing about OBSERVED instances of speciation, instead using genetic evidence. the authors talk about events which are thought to be speciation due to hybridization occuring millions of years ago.
Note the difference between millions of years ago and observed.



4. "The Gibbons speciation mechanism, from the journal of "J Theor Biol. 1990 Aug 23;145(4):447-56."
Mathematics Department, Monash University Clayton, Victoria, Australia.
"A mechanism of sympatric speciation first proposed by Gibbons is analyzed and submitted to computer simulation."


Computer stimulations are not observed instances of speciation. Once again only the authors of talkorigins know why this is presented as an instance of observed speciation.


5. "Sharman, G.B., Close, R.L, Maynes, G.M., 1991, Chromosome evolution, phylogeny, and speciation of rock wallabies, Australian Journal of Zoology Twenty-one taxa of rock wallabies presently grouped in 11 species were studied at their type localities and elsewhere. All were chromosomally distinct except for Petrogale xanthopus and P. x. celeris, and all taxa appear to have evolved from an ancestor"


Once again this study says absolutely nothing about observed instances of speciation, rather it talks about speciation thought to have occured millions of years ago.


6. "# Werth, C. R., and Windham, M.D., 1991, A model for divergent, allopatric, speciation of polyploid pteridophytes resulting from silencing of duplicate- gene expression, AM-Natural, Volume 137(4):515-526."
to quote from the study:

we present a MODEL of allopatric speciation at the polypolid level....it is predicted that the combined effect of postzygotic hybrid sterility and genetic divergence MIGHT lead to speciation:


This research is talking about a theoritical model of speciation, and makes predictions. It does not even mention observed instances of one species giving rise to another.

etc, etc, etc.....
There's nothing wrong with the butterfly. It as the information encoded for its life cycle.
Link inactive. In addition, predictions based on random mutations is not entirely relevant to me. You havent dealt with random mutation as yet
Again, nothing to do with Darwinism. In fact, his tree is upside down, if anything at all.
YouTube - The Cambrian Explosion Part 1 of 2
YouTube - The Cambrian Explosion Part 2 of 2
Stories about whale legs and human tails. Irrelevant.
This was intelligently designed. In addition I don't know what abiogenesis has to do with anything when tests show that bacteria cannot turn into men.

Of course we've already established this as futile.
No, all your evidence is a leap over, seeing that tests show random mutation is sterile, and that there is a limit to adaptation (a limit you will continue to ignore because of the supposed limitless abilities of random mutation. This based on the belief in the competence of random mutation). On these two premises alone, to ignore them and give me "butterflies" and "fossil record" , Darwinism is not concerned with science, just world view, which ha grown into an empire, and promoting itself through people like you..

If you're up to it, post your evidence for creationism, I need a good laugh.
You can begin with every single documentation of adaptation ever recorded. Every test ever performed on adaptation. And minus the speculation. One example
 
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nChrist

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theory of evolution = A less than magnificent FARCE tied together with a series of HOAXES. All of modern science can't salvage what little is left. The big fear in the so-called scientific community is that the rest of it will be exposed.

As a contrast, the TRUTH is simple and stands. So-called science will never catch up with God The Creator. So, a plain and simple man who believes God has the greatest wisdom. For those who deny God, see Psalms 14.

Psalms 19:1-14 KJV The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, 5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. 6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. 8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. 11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. 12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. 13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. 14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

My God:

mine040.jpg
 
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laconicstudent

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Someone should really break to 357magnum that Evolution is still accepted and far "big fear" of exposure, the scientific community collectively enjoys laughing contemptuously at Creationists and adherents of Intelligent Design.
 
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K

kharisym

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This is not entirely random...

Oh my, it seems I caught a live one. Well, it seems I've finally got your cards on the table. It'll take me time to pull together a response amidst my other responsibilities this week, so have patience! Refuting actual arguments deserves more attention than the proofless fecal throwing the average creationist seems to engage in these days.

Just from a quick perousal of your linked sources, I noticed CreationWiki and Biologic Institute (run by the discovery institute *laughs*) So I already have an idea of the 'quality' I'll be encountering. This should make for some lighter moments while I'm taking breaks from my papers.
 
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Split Rock

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theory of evolution = A less than magnificent FARCE tied together with a series of HOAXES. All of modern science can't salvage what little is left.
All because you type words in ALL CAPS doesn't mean you are offering anything other than EMPTY RHETORIC.


The big fear in the so-called scientific community is that the rest of it will be exposed.
Hmmm... is this the same "so-called scientific community" that has provided the fundamentals for all the techology you take for granted... like your computer and the internet?

As a contrast, the TRUTH is simple and stands. So-called science will never catch up with God The Creator. So, a plain and simple man who believes God has the greatest wisdom.
Science has nothing to do with God.
 
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Naraoia

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People who try to make creationism into some kind of philosophy deserves to be pwned -- in my opinion.
Then you could start pwning them instead of arguing with us :p

Well Naraoia,

By using the same Scholar hits method you used, "evolution" hit 2,800,000 times, which means "macroevolution" has been referred to only .007% of the time and "microevolution" has been referred to only .008% of the time in comparison. Like I said, these terms are certainly used in science, but they are like the $2 bill, they are rarely used.

best,
Oh, I didn't say they were common; but they are certainly not "creationist terms".

Also, when comparing numbers, bear in mind that the terms are only useful in relatively limited contexts. They are niche terms, similar to lineage sorting (76k hits), multi-level selection (83k hits), island dwarfism (19k hits), and punctuated equilibrium (33k hits). "Evolution" is likely to be found in articles about all of the above, plus a considerable number of non-life science publications. (About 250k if you tick every subject area except life sciences and medicine in Scholar advanced search)

Amen! - What's left of the theory of evolution is an embarrassment to so-called science.
What do you mean by "so-called science"? I'm not embarrassed; then again, I like to do real science, not "so-called science".

The theory of evolution would already be dead and buried if not for the need of saving face and those making money with the continued junk.
One. Until I got a funded PhD studentship in an evolution-related field, I didn't make any money with evolution. I could have chosen a virtually limitless number of other subjects to make a living of even within biology. Most people who support evolution on this forum don't make any money with it - most of them are not even biologists, let alone evolutionary biologists.

Two, in your eyes - in the majority of America's eyes, if I remember my stats correctly - our face would be better off if we abandoned evolution.

Why do you think we still accept it?

The fabulous discovery is that Genesis is 100% accurate. God created all, exactly as He said that He did. We've had the truth these thousands of years from the Holy Bible, and it stands as the absolute truth that can't be refuted.
:sleep:

I can make the exact same evidence-free claim with any creation myth. Does anyone have any reason to believe me? Does anyone have any reason to believe your evidence-free claim? Why or why not?
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Amen! - What's left of the theory of evolution is an embarrassment to so-called science. The theory of evolution would already be dead and buried if not for the need of saving face and those making money with the continued junk. The fabulous discovery is that Genesis is 100% accurate. God created all, exactly as He said that He did. We've had the truth these thousands of years from the Holy Bible, and it stands as the absolute truth that can't be refuted.
Is this guy serious... :doh:
 
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nChrist

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Is this guy serious... :doh:

Oh, I'm completely serious. It takes much greater faith to believe in the farce of the theory of evolution that to believe the Creator - Almighty God.

Genesis 1:1 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There is no riddle or theory of Creation. God created all exactly like He said that He did. Darwin was a "Johnny-come-lately" disconnected from reality. He wasn't involved in anything resembling real science. There has been one hoax after another to defend his wild hypothesis. All of the hoaxes tied together are still a hoax. It's a dead theory that needs to be buried.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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Oh, I'm completely serious. It takes much greater faith to believe in the farce of the theory of evolution that to believe the Creator - Almighty God.

Genesis 1:1 KJV In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

John 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

There is no riddle or theory of Creation. God created all exactly like He said that He did. Darwin was a "Johnny-come-lately" disconnected from reality. He wasn't involved in anything resembling real science. There has been one hoax after another to defend his wild hypothesis. All of the hoaxes tied together are still a hoax. It's a dead theory that needs to be buried.
Do you have any idea what Darwin did study?
 
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K

kharisym

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Oh my, it seems I caught a live one. Well, it seems I've finally got your cards on the table. It'll take me time to pull together a response amidst my other responsibilities this week, so have patience! Refuting actual arguments deserves more attention than the proofless fecal throwing the average creationist seems to engage in these days.

Just from a quick perousal of your linked sources, I noticed CreationWiki and Biologic Institute (run by the discovery institute *laughs*) So I already have an idea of the 'quality' I'll be encountering. This should make for some lighter moments while I'm taking breaks from my papers.

I've decided that, instead of doing one complete reply, I'll reply piece by piece. I have to do it in small chunks anyway while I take breaks so I may as well. Here's the first part, I haven't even gotten to the really juicy stuff and already I'm laughing. I've got an unsupported claim and a strawman in the first two attempts at an argument:

This is not entirely random.

YouTube - New research showing that human endogenous retroviruses do not prove evolution

This is also heavily based on the idea of junk DNA. We are progressing away from this idea.

Cute! First off, I doubt you understand the concept of junk DNA, but since this you-tube video isn't making an argument based on junk DNA, mention of it is just a non sequitor and so not worth arguing. To the issue at hand: This you-tube video is making an argument based on a mis-understanding of the research. This is amusing, since the full article and its data sets are available.

This is the money-quote of the you-tube video, that the entire argument is based on: "Interestingly, the authors found that the resurrected virus called HERV-K(con) choose to integrate itself into genes being actively transcribed. That is genes currently in the process of making proteins."

This is what the authors actually say: "HERV-KCon and the other viruses (except AAV and MMTV) integrated more frequently in genes that were actively expressed as measured by Affymetrix microarrays."

"More frequently" is not the same as "choose", and the data provided clearly shows that HERV-K(con) did indeed insert in sites of nonactive transcription. Since the you-tube video's argument is dependent upon 100% of HERV-K(con)'s integration being in actively transcribed locations, and since this is NOT what the authors found, we can conclude that the video's argument fails due to faulty premise.

article: Integration target site selection by a resurrected human endogenous retrovirus

The fossil record is consistent with a creation. Asserting that the earth came before life forms is not evidence for chemical evolution either. Texts already explain the "preparation" and man threatened to be overun by "large beasts". With bacteria remaining bacteria, and other scientific evidence validating creationism, this is a baseless assertion. Further, when you use the fossil record, be sure to include everything.

Your argument is dependent upon the un-supported claim that the fossil record is consistent with creation. (Seriously, try positing some evidence. Bumper-stickers aren't a philosophy, dude, and assuming your radiant superiority is sufficient evidence is just egotistical.) The fossil record shows clear striation depicting certain animals at certain layers and other animals at others. This sorting is consistent with evolution in that we can demark lineations within the fossil record (phylogenic tree). If Creation were true, we'd expect to see a random sorting, but we don't see this. Even if we accepted the idea that animals can evolve within 'kinds' we would still see a departure with the observed fossil record. Case in point: I think we can agree that dogs and eoraptors are of different kinds, we would expect to see a representative of their kinds at all points in the fossil record yet we don't. We only find eoraptors in the late Triassic. There's no dog-like mammals found from that period.
 
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