My Evidence Challenge

Jazer · Sep 20, 2011

Tiberius said:
How do you explain the fact that while the Holy Spirit helps you decide that Genesis 1 is a literal truth, other Christians have the Holy spirit helping them decide that Genesis 1 is metaphorical?

Gen 1 is literal truth metaphor and more. That is what makes God so great. There are levels of meaning and understanding. That is why OEC, GAP & YEC can all be true at the same time. Even though they cover different time period and are restrained by that. OEC covers up 14 billion years, GAP covers 14,000 years and YEC only covers the last 6,000 years. All three are still literal. I think that GPA & OEC does a better job of explaining how Adam showed up in the Garden in Eden 6,000 years ago. But it's up to YEC to present their theory on how Adam got there. Because we all agree on when Adam was there.

razeontherock · Sep 20, 2011

AV1611VET said:
Do you use BH/AH? if not, your point is nebulous.

(And what does "H" stand for?)

Bah humbug and always a humbug. (Just pre-season practicing)

AV1611VET · Sep 20, 2011

razeontherock said:
Bah humbug and always a humbug. (Just pre-season practicing)

-- no comment, bro; I'll let my smiley speak for itself --

(I can think of another word that aitch should stand for, myself.)

Jazer · Sep 20, 2011

AV1611VET said:
If you were there, the event occurred.

If you were not there, the event occurred.

If you were there the week that God created everything, do you think your understanding of that week would be a lot more then what it is now?

AV1611VET · Sep 20, 2011

Jazer said:
If you were there the week that God created everything, do you think your understanding of that week would be a lot more then what it is now?

No -- (remember though: you said 'a lot more').

One thing I would really like to know, is if the Garden of Eden was in [what is today called] China.

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2011

AV1611VET said:
What's that to an atheist?

If He doesn't exist, what does it matter if He uses 30 different methods?

You miss the point as usual, AV. I think you do it intentionally. I think it's obvious that I was saying that under the hypothetical condition that God existed.

Speaking of diabolical mimicry, don't forget El Nino blames the weather on Jesus.

And Monday blames Mondayitis on the moon! Blow up the moon!!!!

Of course not -- it's my trademark --

It's also the surest sign of a man who is wrong - and knows it.

Doveaman · Sep 22, 2011

chilehed said:
If evidence means "some effect which could in principle be measured", then in the natural world there is no such thing as an event that leaves no evidence. Such would in fact be a non-event.

"So Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego came out of the fire, and the satraps, prefects, governors and royal advisers crowded around them. They saw that the fire had not harmed their bodies, nor was a hair of their heads singed; their robes were not scorched, and there was no smell of fire on them." (Dan 3:26-27).

Was this fire a non-event?

LOCO · Sep 23, 2011

Tiberius said:
What practical difference is there between an event that leaves no evidence at all and an event that never occurred?

"an event that never occurred" is a contradiction in terms.

How can an event never occur? The term 'event' means a 'thing that happened' IOW something happened.

What you can state categorically is that an event occurred. Evidence for that event is what you are questioning not an occurrence of an event.

There will always be some evidence to support an 'event' otherwise it cannot be described as one.

If it is not physical, material or written evidence it may be eyewitness reports etc. which can be subjective but evidence nonetheless.

Blessings

Tiberius · Sep 25, 2011

LOCO said:
"an event that never occurred" is a contradiction in terms.

How can an event never occur? The term 'event' means a 'thing that happened' IOW something happened.

What you can state categorically is that an event occurred. Evidence for that event is what you are questioning not an occurrence of an event.

There will always be some evidence to support an 'event' otherwise it cannot be described as one.

If it is not physical, material or written evidence it may be eyewitness reports etc. which can be subjective but evidence nonetheless.

Blessings

An event that never occurred is something like the Death Star destroying Alderaan. See what I'm getting at?

In any case, I think it's quite obvious what I meant. Why are you concentrating on one small aspect of my post while ignoring the more important things I was talking about?

AV1611VET · Oct 1, 2011

Tiberius said:
What practical difference is there between an event that leaves no evidence at all and an event that never occurred?

The event itself.

Tinker Grey · Oct 1, 2011

"What practical difference is there between an apple that leaves no evidence at all and an apple that never occurred?"

"The apple itself."

AV1611VET · Oct 1, 2011

Tinker Grey said:
"What practical difference is there between an apple that leaves no evidence at all an apple that never occurred?"

"The apple itself."

Your missing conjunction aside -- yes, I agree.

thaumaturgy · Oct 1, 2011

Jazer said:
Gen 1 is literal truth metaphor and more. That is what makes God so great. There are levels of meaning and understanding. That is why OEC, GAP & YEC can all be true at the same time.

I am always impressed with the miracles in the Bible. Now I hear that two mutually exclusive concepts (OEC and YEC) can be true at the same time!

It is a miracle. When something that requires billions of years can be simultaneously true with something that explicitly excludes the billions of years!

Selah!

Such is the power of the Bible. 3 = 1 and now Old = Young. Jesus is "all man" and "all God" simultaneously. It is a wonderous book of wonders.

If there's one very important thing I learn from Christianity it is that "words mean nothing".

Communication is meaningless.

Glory be to God in the Highest.

Tinker Grey · Oct 1, 2011

AV1611VET said:
Your missing conjunction aside -- yes, I agree.

fixed conjunction.

Jazer · Oct 1, 2011

thaumaturgy said:
I am always impressed with the miracles in the Bible. Now I hear that two mutually exclusive concepts (OEC and YEC) can be true at the same time!

It is a miracle. When something that requires billions of years can be simultaneously true with something that explicitly excludes the billions of years

Why not? OEC and GAP are both true at the same time. Even though GAP says a day is 1000 years and OEC says a day could be billions of years. God is able to talk about two things at the same time. Also God does things the same way. That is why we know that God gave us the Bible and not man. Because as your quick to point out man is just not able to do it. We have the same thing when Jesus was talking to the disciples in matthew ch 24. He is talking about the fall of Jerusalem and the temple. But at the same time He is talking about what will take place in Jerusalem at the end of the age 2,000 years later. One is a shadow and a type of the other. What God did in Israel then He is now doing in the Church today.

YEC is talking mostly about the Garden of Eden. The vast majority of Bishops Usshers book talks about the last 6,000 years. We know that Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. We know they are real historical people. We have plenty of scientific evidence to prove that and nothing to show that the Bible is not true in this regard So there is not much difference between GAP & YEC.

Anyways it would be so easy for you to prove us wrong. All you have to do is show that there was not a neolithic revolution that took place 12,982 years ago. Show that people were hurding animals, building cities and farming before 12,982 years ago. When you think about how easy it would be to prove the Bible wrong and no one can prove the Bible wrong. Then the Bible MUST be true. If you choose to understand the written word of God & God's message for you today. You have that choice, it is up to you to choose life and live.

I do not know when the factory outlet store closes. Ops, my wife keeps talking to me.

Jazer · Oct 1, 2011

thaumaturgy said:
If there's one very important thing I learn from Christianity it is that "words mean nothing".

Actually words mean everything. We learn that "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." In Ch 1 of Genesis we see that "God said". Some people believe that God spoke Creation into existence. "God said", "God called", "God saw", "God made". All powerful words.

thaumaturgy · Oct 1, 2011

Jazer said:
Why not? OEC and GAP are both true at the same time. Even though GAP says a day is 1000 years and OEC says a day could be billions of years.

I was referring to YEC and OEC as I clearly pointed out. I cannot see how those two could be simultaneously correct.

YEC is talking mostly about the Garden of Eden.

YEC is "Young Earth Creationism" in which the earth was created 6-10,000 years ago. That means "Old Earth Creationism" (which allows, depending on variety) for significantly more actual time.

I wasn't aware there was a variant of YEC in which the earth was allowed to be more than a few thousand years old.

Anyways it would be so easy for you to prove us wrong. All you have to do is show that there was not a neolithic revolution that took place 12,982 years ago.

What did I say I needed to prove wrong or right? I merely point out that I cannot find a way in which one "hypothesis" which says the earth was created about 10,000 years ago or less and an alternate hypothesis which says the earth can be much much older can be equivalent.

If one limits the time to 10,000 years or less and the other allows for >10,000 years I cannot see how they can both be true.

When you think about how easy it would be to prove the Bible wrong and no one can prove the Bible wrong.

Of course no one can prove the bible wrong! If words have no technical or fixed meaning it is impossible to prove the bible wrong! Jesus can have two dramatically different genealogies and the Bible is still right! A prophecy that clearly states one thing but does not occur can be interpretted to mean something the words themselves didn't even say. A literal book made up of metaphors is an almost perfectly unfalsifiable text!

Of course it makes me wonder if there is "meaning" that is actual within its pages, because of so much "fungibility" of the terms, but that's for another time and place.

If you choose to understand the written word of God & God's message for you today. You have that choice, it is up to you to choose life and live.

Seems that this renders the Bible pretty much unneeded. If I have to choose to understand the Bible in such a way that it can never be wrong (because I'm busy making whatever inconvenient terms match whatever I need it to to keep the Bible from being incorrect) why not just eliminate the written word in the first place?

razeontherock · Oct 1, 2011

thaumaturgy said:
Of course it makes me wonder if there is "meaning" that is actual within its pages, because of so much "fungibility"

The meaning is not within it's pages, and what you should notice about a fungus is that it is alive.

Tinker Grey · Oct 1, 2011

razeontherock said:
The meaning is not within it's pages, and what you should notice about a fungus is that it is alive.

What you should notice is that fungible is not etymologically related to fungus.

LOCO · Oct 1, 2011

Tiberius said:
An event that never occurred is something like the Death Star destroying Alderaan. See what I'm getting at?

In any case, I think it's quite obvious what I meant. Why are you concentrating on one small aspect of my post while ignoring the more important things I was talking about?

I respectfully disagree, this is the crux of your question, not a small aspect.

What event are you comparing the fictional Death Star destroy Alderaan to? Is it an event described in the Bible, if so you need to come out and say which one.

There are non-fictional events in the Bible that occurred which are supported by historical, archaelogical and documented evidence.

The Bible also contains fictional events encapsulated in parables, poetry and allegory.

Without clarification your OP does not make sense.

You do not state what 'event' or 'non-event' you are talking about. Are we to assume you are talking about something in the Bible, history, today or on Star Trek.

How can I respond when I don't know what 'event' you are referring to in your OP?

Can I just pick one randomly?

Can I make one up?

Blessings

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