My Enoch Challenge

eclipsenow said:

Let me clarify that for you: people, don't respond to this guy! He's an internet troll out to flame the world of science and embarrass his own faith with his open displays of ignorance. He thinks he's being a good 'witness' but is about as annoying as that group that turn up to homosexual funerals and oh-so-lovingly shout "God hates gays!" He's about at that level.

My advice? Do the WORST thing possible for an internet troll. Rob him of his audience, and just put him on your ignore list.

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Ease up on the short temper there mate! We are here to debate with creationists and if there ever was a harder thing to do then this is it.

It is pointless to take part in a debate with creationists and then put them on ignore.

Honestly, what did you expect? AV and DAD are enough to have me put my face in a blender but as any scientist will tell you: " to persevere is to come closer to success". Now don't give up on us because when the going gets tough the tough take a break and cool off before resuming their fight!


HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

AV1611VET said:

Produce evidence that verifies this:

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

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He was not “WHAT???” good? Bad? Short? Tall? What is it that Enoch was not?

AV1611VET said:

... or admit that there are things God did that didn't generate any.

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Again; didn’t generate what??? Your questions aren’t complete my friend.

K

AV1611VET said:

On the earth anymore.

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The 1611 KJV Version doesn't say that "Enoch wasn't on earth anymore".

AV1611VET said:

Ouch!

C'mon, now ... we're not that bad, are we?

You too!

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Nah! After all we are all here for the same reason!

AV1611VET said:

Wake up, newbie.

Some of these guys have put up with me here for almost seven years now, and although they may not like me particularly well, they have respect for my faith ... and dare I say, some even learn a thing or two.

You, on the other hand, come in here displaying a short fuse; and I have a feeling you're not going to get much sympathy from even my antagonists.

(I could be wrong though. )

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If you actually answered the theological questions and issues I put to you in the climate thread then I wouldn't have a short fuse. Instead you prattled off an ignorant list of your own prejudices against science as some kind of 'argument' against global warming: which was basically the same as standing naked in the town square shouting "I'm a tulip, I'm a tulip, I don't need to wear clothes because I'm so beautiful".

eclipsenow said:

If you actually answered the theological questions and issues I put to you in the climate thread then I wouldn't have a short fuse. Instead you prattled off an ignorant list of your own prejudices against science as some kind of 'argument' against global warming: which was basically the same as standing naked in the town square shouting "I'm a tulip, I'm a tulip, I don't need to wear clothes because I'm so beautiful".

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You are knocking on a deaf man's door if you seriously expect a direct answer to your question from creationists.

I have posted a question over and over and none have answered it as of yet ("What happened to the aquatic reptiles like the Pleisiosaurs. Surely they did not drown in the deluge?". YECS insist that Dinosaurs lived side by side with people and they all died in the flood and yet this includes the aquatic species too. Imagine drowning in the very water that is your natural habitat

mzungu said:

You are knocking on a deaf man's door if you seriously expect a direct answer to your question from creationists.

I have posted a question over and over and none have answered it as of yet ("What happened to the aquatic reptiles like the Pleisiosaurs. Surely they did not drown in the deluge?". YECS insist that Dinosaurs lived side by side with people and they all died in the flood and yet this includes the aquatic species too. Imagine drowning in the very water that is your natural habitat

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And it's all so unnecessary. The first few chapters of Genesis are brilliantly clever: and none of us modern English speaking types get it. There are layers upon layers of meaning, weaving the number 7 into all manner of textures in the very language used. EG: In the original Hebrew, the first sentence starts of with 7 words, the second sentence with 14 words, and there are various repeated phrases like "And god said" in multiples of 7 as well.

In a world without TV, but instead with a rich oral tradition, this would have grabbed the attention of the ancient world as much as a well designed movie intro. To ancient ears it's almost as recognisable a motif as the Star Wars or Superman theme. For the Babylonians had the Enuma Elish creation myth, which read a bit like their national anthem and was read out once a year. It was written on 7 tablets and moved over a creation sequence of about 7 stages. Genesis would have tuned them in to the special nature of the writing. It is NOT a literal history, as if an observer were standing by watching what God had done. It's a carefully crafted document as to WHY we are here, not how we got here. And it is a theological bombshell exploding the Babylonian myth. It reacts to and critiques it. It's a poem: a cultural counter-narrative, and it says many 'heretical' things to the ancient world. Like stars are OUR servants, operating like calendars telling us the seaons, and not some gods to sacrifice babies to. The world was made by the loving care of ONE god, not by many gods in civil war. Etc, etc, etc.

It's carefully crafted in a poetic form. Just a few more details illustrate this. The first 3 days show the forms, the second 3 days the filling of those forms. Just pan down to the table here. Basically, Day 1 = Let there be light: Day 4 = let there be sources of light, the sun, the moon, the stars.
Day 2 = separation of the waters (a BIG theme in Babylonian literature where the goddess of chaos is cut in half and her body becomes the land and sea) but God just SAYS they are to separate: there are no battles between the gods in the making of this world. Day 5 then fills the air and water with birds and fish.

Framework interpretation (Genesis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ETC. It's a carefully crafted poem that anyone who has eyes to read and comprehension to understand can see. But Young Earth Creationists just refuse. They can't see. The sad irony is that their reaction to evolution is so strong, they are letting Charles Darwin dictate how to read the passage anyway. They read it in direct antithesis to Darwinianism, and completely miss the rich cultural analysis and theology that is there. It's just sad, and not a little moronic.

eclipsenow said:

ETC. It's a carefully crafted poem that anyone who has eyes to read and comprehension to understand can see. But Young Earth Creationists just refuse. They can't see. The sad irony is that their reaction to evolution is so strong, they are letting Charles Darwin dictate how to read the passage anyway. They read it in direct antithesis to Darwinianism, and completely miss the rich cultural analysis and theology that is there. It's just sad, and not a little moronic.

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That's because YECs interpret the Bible as if it is a science textbook instead of a spiritual guide!

mzungu said:

That's because YECs interpret the Bible as if it is a science textbook instead of a spiritual guide!

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And they've decided to read it as a literal history of creation because they're feeling threatened. They see evolution saying one thing and the bible saying another: but in reality they are 2 different disciplines answering 2 different sets of questions. After reading the Enuma Elish, I really am convinced that Moses (or the author of Genesis) was 'marking their thesis' so to speak.
Enuma Elish wiki | Eclipse Now

AV1611VET said:

I'm still kinda short on evidence/admissions here, guys.

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Is this thread some sort of metaphor for the interpretation that Enoch will return to earth as an end times witness?

AV1611VET said:

No.

And while I do believe that Enoch is going to be one of the two witnesses mention in Revelation, this thread shows: 1) there are things in the Bible that occurred that didn't leave any evidence behind, 2) you can't get an educated person to admit a miracle occurred, and 3) it's very hard to get a challenge answered by those who adhere to the scientific method.

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1) What occurred?

2) What miracle?

3) People who adhere to the scientific method see through your challenges as the tripe they are.

AV1611VET said:

Remember Post 30?

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No. Though I went back and looked it up.

Is it still your belief that a literal interpretation of "wood" is "metal"?

AV1611VET said:

On the earth anymore.

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We call that condition, "death."