My Enoch Challenge

[Nathan Poe]

Or perhaps I gave the source too much credit for understanding?

More likely you gave youself too much credit for coming up with it -- as usual.

 

[Jazer]

Taken to the woodshed -- by God, right?

Pay the consequences -- to God, correct?

Given God's track record, would it therefore be fair to say that the one and only "sin" is to disobey God's commands -- either His standing orders or whatever He demands you to do at that particular moment?

I was reading the 119 psalm one day. David was talking about the law and the commandments of God. For me I was raised in a school system where it seems like the rules were designed to make life more easy for the teachers. They just wanted to go to the teacher lounge, smoke, drink coffee and talk to each other. They were paid to teach, but they were going to do all they could to make that job as easy as they could. The students made the sacrifices to make their life more easy.

Then I started to read what David said about God and the law of God. How different it is from the way man does things. God really does love us and care about us. Even love is sacrificial, where you are willing to pay a price for the beloved. So I began to learn that God's ways are different from man's ways. Right now I get the feeling you are looking at this from man's perspective and mans ways. Not from a perspective of God's love for us and how much He was willing to sacrifice for our sake. Even Jesus went to the Cross for us. How many teachers would be willing to make that much sacrifice for their students? Perhaps no job pays that much. No doubt Jesus was the greatest teacher who ever lived and He set an example for us on how to teach. Most everyone agrees that the Sermon on the mount was the greatest teaching ever.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I was reading the 119 psalm one day. David was talking about the law and the commandments of God. For me I was raised in a school system where it seems like the rules were designed to make life more easy for the teachers. They just wanted to go to the teacher lounge, smoke, drink coffee and talk to each other. They were paid to teach, but they were going to do all they could to make that job as easy as they could. The students made the sacrifices to make their life more easy.

Then I started to read what David said about God and the law of God. How different it is from the way man does things. God really does love us and care about us. Even love is sacrificial, where you are willing to pay a price for the beloved. So I began to learn that God's ways are different from man's ways. Right now I get the feeling you are looking at this from man's perspective and mans ways. Not from a perspective of God's love for us and how much He was willing to sacrifice for our sake. Even Jesus went to the Cross for us. How many teachers would be willing to make that much sacrifice for their students? Perhaps no job pays that much. No doubt Jesus was the greatest teacher who ever lived and He set an example for us on how to teach. Most everyone agrees that the Sermon on the mount was the greatest teaching ever.

Wow -- you certainly pulled out all the stops to avoid giving a straight answer.

 

[dewba]

Scripture is evidence enough.

You can believe, or not.

and in the words of your own signature: "God did it--case closed."

 

[VehementiDominus]

Or perhaps I gave the source too much credit for understanding?

I couldn't help but notice you ignored my Discword comparison.

The fact is, Terry Pratchett is a far better author than the Biblical authors could ever hope to be.

Deny this and you make swamp dragon hatchlings cry.

 

[Belk]

Or perhaps I gave the source too much credit for understanding?

Yes, that must be why no one understands your brilliant analogies. It's all their fault for not understanding your genius.

<Tongue -> Cheek>

 

[Jazer]

Wow -- you certainly pulled out all the stops to avoid giving a straight answer.

To ""sin" is to disobey God's commands". I am just trying to explain the difference between God's commandments and the way that man does things.

Isaiah 55:8, 9 (TNIV) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are
higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my
thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Tiberius]

Um ... that analogy was only to show a motivation for cleaning up the mess.

You don't know how much 'milk was in the fridge' when the Flood occurred, so you don't have any basis of comparison.

On the topic of motivations, what was God's motivation to make the world show no evidence of the flood if he wanted us to know it happened?

Yes -- got it.

Stop looking at the trees and try to see the forest, please.

I think I see it better than you can. You're the one wandering through the forest while not looking at it at all. Instead, you're reading the guidebook that says how wonderful it is. Maybe if you looked up for once you;d see that the guidebook is filled with mistakes. In the meantime, you're missing the view.

That's one of your problems. You guys want to 'figure it out' on your own. The Bible is just as much a part of reality as DNA, and in It is the information you're seeking.

Please show me the specific verse and explain how it relates to the information I am seeking.

It says you are 'without excuse'.

That's right. And I doin't need an excuse, because I am looking at reality itself.

Since you are NOT looking at the world, but merely the guidebook, you are the one who needs an excuse.

Riiiight -- then you guys would be harping that the [completed] Bible didn't exist when Romans was written, and that the term was snuck in there after-the-fact by conspiratists, who also secretly implanted prophecies.

Do you see conspiracy theories everywhere?

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Scripture is evidence enough.

You can believe, or not.

and in the words of your own signature: "God did it--case closed."

Yes, scripture is evidence enough to suggest that one should not accept it's supernatural claims.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

Then I'll consider your request sterile.

Then I'll consider your challenge pointless.

 

[Jazer]

Scripture is evidence enough.

I give them tons and tons of scientific evidence for the Bible every day. Maybe they are just not interested in History, but a lot of science involves history. Even evolution involves a lot of history. For over 200 years now people have been useing science to prove the Bible is true. Before Darwin people studied Science and the Bible together.

 

[Belk]

I give them tons and tons of scientific evidence for the Bible every day. Maybe they are just not interested in History, but a lot of science involves history. Even evolution involves a lot of history. For over 200 years now people have been useing science to prove the Bible is true. Before Darwin people studied Science and the Bible together.

You must have a different definition of "Prove" then the rest of us.

 

[Jazer]

You must have a different definition of "Prove" then the rest of us.

I am not asking for anything special or different. The Bible as history is subject to the same standards as anything else. If we were to get into the poetry books or the prophecy books then maybe the standard we use would change. For example the History books contains the law. David in the Poetry section deals with a right response to the law of God. We live in a society where 90% of the people believe in God. So even if you fall into that 10% catagory your still subject to the scrutiny of the other 90% of the people. It maybe against the law to fire someone for their religious beliefs, but I would not count on protection from the law of man. So people are pretty much required to have socially acceptable beliefs. Study after study has shown in a college invironment peer pressure can be a very strong force.

 

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I give them tons and tons of scientific evidence for the Bible every day. Maybe they are just not interested in History, but a lot of science involves history. Even evolution involves a lot of history. For over 200 years now people have been useing science to prove the Bible is true. Before Darwin people studied Science and the Bible together.

I've read a few Clancy, Grisham and King novels over the years. Every one of those books refer to real places, events and technology. Does this mean I should believe them as literal fact?

 

[Belk]

I am not asking for anything special or different. The Bible as history is subject to the same standards as anything else. If we were to get into the poetry books or the prophecy books then maybe the standard we use would change. For example the History books contains the law. David in the Poetry section deals with a right response to the law of God. We live in a society where 90% of the people believe in God. So even if you fall into that 10% catagory your still subject to the scrutiny of the other 90% of the people. It maybe against the law to fire someone for their religious beliefs, but I would not count on protection from the law of man. So people are pretty much required to have socially acceptable beliefs. Study after study has shown in a college invironment peer pressure can be a very strong force.

Uh, that's nice. What does this rambling paragraph have to do with anything?

 

[Jazer]

I've read a few Clancy, Grisham and King novels over the years. Every one of those books refer to real places, events and technology. Does this mean I should believe them as literal fact?

That is what they use to say about the city of Troy, before they found it and it became a archeology site. There are a lot of programs on TV like NOVA, PBS, National Geographic, History Channel, Science Channel to name a few that present scientific evidence for the Bible. Often in the form of film or video taken at archeology sites. So just because people are not interested in looking at the evidence, does not mean the evidence does not exist.
The Bible's Buried Secrets | NOVA | PBS Video

The bottom line is that there is so much in the Bible that is proven fact. Yet no one has ever been able to show that any of it is not true. If you applied the same standard to science: Throw it all away because you can not prove all of it to be true, then you would have no science.

 

[Nathan Poe]

That is what they use to say about the city of Troy, before they found it and it became a archeology site. There are a lot of programs on TV like NOVA, PBS, National Geographic, History Channel, Science Channel to name a few that present scientific evidence for the Bible. Often in the form of film or video taken at archeology sites. So just because people are not interested in looking at the evidence, does not mean the evidence does not exist.
The Bible's Buried Secrets | NOVA | PBS Video

So if we keep looking over the rainbow, we'll find the land of Oz.

 

[Jazer]

So if we keep looking over the rainbow, we'll find the land of Oz.

Like I said: apply the same standard to science that you appy to the Bible.
You can not prove all of science to be true. You can not prove all of the Bible to be true.

What is the true ending of Occurance at Owl Creek? Did he die or did he excape?

 

[Nostromo]

The bottom line is that there is so much in the Bible that is proven fact. Yet no one has ever been able to show that any of it is not true.

Except Genesis.

 

[Davian]

Prove, prove, prove, pro......

...
The bottom line is that there is so much in the Bible that is proven fact.

There are no proven facts in the bible. Established, accepted facts, sure. Water is wet.

Yet no one has ever been able to show that any of it is not true.

A nonsense statement. Are you are working from the original texts?

If you applied the same standard to science: Throw it all away because you can not prove all of it to be true, then you would have no science.

Do you mean knowledge, hypothesis, theories? Science is a process - you cannot "prove science is true".

Can you ease up on the "prove" word please?