My country, Right or Wrong?

[stamperben]

‘Our country—when right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right.’

The words above are from a speech by Carl Schurz.

The following words resonated with me. The link is here at Daily Kos.

I am an American citizen. I love my country. I revel in its history and marvel at its achievements. I am grateful for its freedoms and cherish the values upon which it was created. I fly the flag in my front yard and have voted in every election since I turned 18, except for that one local election many years ago when I had the flu. I have voted for Republicans and Democrats and Independents, although I confess there aren’t many Republicans I could stomach voting for in today’s savagely polarized political climate.

I am proud of America’s soldiers and sailors, both past and present. I am proud that I have ancestors who have served their country in nearly every conflict in America’s history...

I am also aware that our military men and women do not hold a monopoly on service to their country. I am proud of the contributions of America’s working people. I am proud to be the descendant of builders, stonemasons, merchant seamen, coal miners, railroad workers, and shopkeepers...

I say all this because apparently these days it is necessary to do so. Because my definition of patriotism differs from that of some others, I am called upon to affirm it again and again to the combative, the cynical and the downright ignorant. Like the Freedom Riders, Vietnam protestors, and today’s Occupy Wall Street activists, those who raise their voices or take to their computers to express a difference of opinion can expect to be shouted down or worse by those who believe that the truest Americans are the most complacent and compliant Americans.

What defines your patriotism?

 

[sk8Joyful]

I am a Patriot, of a country aka the "United States of America" that in its Declaration of Independence, says:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
​

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What defines your patriotism?

Interesting question. There's almost no good answer for it...

Patriotism is defined as devotion to one's country. It can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the country. It can create the inspiration for some really great things like the American revolution, it can also fuel a selfish notion of superiority and create an empire like Nazi Germany.

I don't know if my idealogy would be called patriotism (I'm not loyal to any piece of geography), I think it could just be simply described as a deep respect/agreement with the principles my country was founded upon.

 

[citizenthom]

Patriotism means we as American citizens can have every disagreement in the book on how we run our government and our society, but when other nations try to but in, we band together to get them the heck out of our business.

 

[Douger]

What defines your patriotism?

It's tough, patriotism appeals to human nature, but I simply can't ignore the words of 1John 2:15 and James 4:4

 

[stamperben]

But do any of you agree with the words of Schurz?

 

[cow451]

But do any of you agree with the words of Schurz?

I certainly do. Patriotism includes recognizing that dissent is a form of patriotism, just as defending the status quo.

Advocating the overthrow of elected officials through any means other than the legal channels like the ballot box is NOT patriotism.

 

[BoltNut]

This is predominantly a quote from Richard Riis who wrote the piece, not Carl Schurz who died in 1906.

Aside from this, I would never question the patriotism of someone simply because we disagree politically. I would also agree with Mr. Riis on many things in this article, aside from the obvious differences in our philosophies. Sure, I may be conservative, but we conservatives don't hold an exclusive on Patriotism. That would be ridiculous.

The quote from Schurz, "Our Country - When right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right" I think all could agree with. I could make a case for our country being 'wrong' right now and in need to being "put right". Maybe even Schurz would agree with me. Patriotism comes in all shapes and sizes and it is usually in hindsight that we make the determination as to how patriotic someone is, or was. At the time of the Revolutionary war, the "patriots" were not necessarily seen by everyone as being patriotic. Today, we see them as patriotic because of the nation that was created by their "revolutionary" ideas.

I don't necessarily see those of you who disagree with my conservative ideals, as unpatriotic. You all can be as "patriotic" as I am. We also can be patriotic, yet wrong about political issues of the day. I love my country. I was born Canadian, but am, today, American. I hold no allegiance to Canada. I'm not a Canadian patriot, I am an American. I love the things that America has always stood for. I respect the Constitution and our system of being a Republic, rather than a democracy. I wholeheartedly disagree with the "progressive" way of thinking and find it counter to what the framers of our Constitution intended for our country. It does not make progressives "unpatriotic".

 

[freezerman2000]

My definition of patriotism is doing all you can to help your country while doing it no harm.

 

[Creech]

Patriotism isn't a love of the government but a people, culture, and a country. I am not a big fan on my government, but I love my country.

 

[BoltNut]

I certainly do. Patriotism includes recognizing that dissent is a form of patriotism, just as defending the status quo.

Totally agree.

Advocating the overthrow of elected officials through any means other than the legal channels like the ballot box is NOT patriotism.

Right. They would be Anarchists.

 

[Creech]

I certainly do. Patriotism includes recognizing that dissent is a form of patriotism, just as defending the status quo.

Advocating the overthrow of elected officials through any means other than the legal channels like the ballot box is NOT patriotism.

A government is not the same thing as patriotism. You can be an anarchist but also a patriot because you still love your country, you are just against government. But I guess there are people in this country nowadays that are just in love with government and don't care for this country.

 

[BoltNut]

A government is not the same thing as patriotism. You can be an anarchist but also a patriot because you still love your country, you are just against government. But I guess there are people in this country nowadays that are just in love with government and don't care for this country.

I believe that the key phrase in cow451's statement was "elected officials". It would be hard to justify violent revolution against someone elected by the majority of voters since their election based on our country's Constitution. However, if that vote was corrupt, or proven to be fraudulent, it could also result in riots. In that case, the fraudulent election would be unpatriotic while the uprising could be seen as a "patriotic" statement of protest.

I have a hard time equating Anarchism with anything patriotic.

 

[TeddyReceptus]

What defines your patriotism?

My collection of Charlie Daniels Band Albums, my guns and this here kickin' "cooldana":

 

[HerbieHeadley]

Patriotism isn't a love of the government but a people, culture, and a country. I am not a big fan on my government, but I love my country.

The author of the little opinion piece disguised as what I believe to be a cliff not of a biography goes to great lengths to attach himself somehow on the coattails of this historical figure to dig at conservatives and promote socialism. Because of why? I do not know. I’m somehow missing the connection other than Barry’s surge of troops in Afghanistan and stupid rules of engagement, combined with his kill lists for his drone patrol.
　

 

[Christarchist]

My patriotism is limited to the kingdom of heaven, where my citizenship was secured by the blood of Christ. That said, I do believe that as citizens of this kingdom, we've been instructed by our King to peacefully invade the kingdoms of the world by our example, not by force. Christians who wear the name but act like the world (through the endorsement of violence, idolatry toward human leaders, oppression, etc.) take the name of the Lord in vain and hinder this effort.

Anarchists are often painted with a broad brush, but violent overthrow of the government is a goal held by the minority. The unifying theme in anarchism is that they are against hierarchical governmental structures. There are two legitimate uses of hierarchy, IMO: The parent/child relationship, and the God/child relationship.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I am a Patriot, of a country aka the "United States of America" that in its Declaration of Independence, says:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
​

I believe the same.

It is possible that some of the raw information we are receiving is different.

 

[BoltNut]

My patriotism is limited to the kingdom of heaven, where my citizenship was secured by the blood of Christ. That said, I do believe that as citizens of this kingdom, we've been instructed by our King to peacefully invade the kingdoms of the world by our example, not by force. Christians who wear the name but act like the world (through the endorsement of violence, idolatry toward human leaders, oppression, etc.) take the name of the Lord in vain and hinder this effort.

Anarchists are often painted with a broad brush, but violent overthrow of the government is a goal held by the minority. The unifying theme in anarchism is that they are against hierarchical governmental structures. There are two legitimate uses of hierarchy, IMO: The parent/child relationship, and the God/child relationship.

Well, when the Lord returns and sets up his government in place of our own, I will go along. Anarchists are painted with a broad brush because they paint with a 'roller'. Our Lord said that we should, "render to Caesar, that which is Caesar's". There are other places in scripture that indicate that leadership is "ordained" (Romans 13). Obviously, we are to never hold anything or anyone on an equal level as the Lord. I don't believe any of us here would hold government, any government, in that high of a level.

 

[Christarchist]

Well, when the Lord returns and sets up his government in place of our own, I will go along.

He did set up the kingdom. Just because many aren't loyal to it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. He did not remove earthly governments. We exist alongside them, hopefully eventually rendering them irrelevant.

Anarchists are painted with a broad brush because they paint with a 'roller'.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean. In what way do anarchists paint with a roller?

Our Lord said that we should, "render to Caesar, that which is Caesar's".

You are of the opinion that this statement was a simple declaration by Christ that the government has a right to collect taxes and that we should pay them? Let's look at this passage (Matthew 22:15-22):

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?”

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.

Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”

22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Let's start with the most basic question: What belongs to Caesar that doesn't belong to God? Was Christ saying "Make sure you pay your taxes because although everything in creation belongs to God, when Caesar puts his picture on a coin, God loses that and it belongs to Caesar?" Think carefully about the point Jesus was making. They were trying to trap him, but he gave them an answer that left them in amazement and unable to respond. Why were they amazed? Why didn't they take this answer as victory in their attempt to trap him?

There are other places in scripture that indicate that leadership is "ordained" (Romans 13).

I didn't say it wasn't ordained. I said I don't put my hope and trust in it. If Romans 13 means that we should trust and obey our governments then all Germans should have submitted to Hitler. American revolutionaries should have submitted to Britain. Paul would have been singing the praises of the government that imprisoned him. Christ would have been saying that Pilate was right to kill him. Paul and Christ did submit to the governing authorities, all the way to the point that they were killed by those governing authorities. Submission does not equal trust, faith, and loyalty.

Obviously, we are to never hold anything or anyone on an equal level as the Lord. I don't believe any of us here would hold government, any government, in that high of a level.

But it happens all the time when Christians support things their earthly governments do that directly go against the teachings of Christ.

 

[Christarchist]

Advocating the overthrow of elected officials through any means other than the legal channels like the ballot box is NOT patriotism.

What are your thoughts on the American Revolution?