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This is all fine and dandy but it still doesn't negate the Scriptures. God tells His people, as well as, His ministers "Don't eat meat or drink wine in front of a weaker brother". A weaker brother is one who believes drinking wine or eating meat is sinful.
If you were whipped, nailed to a cross and near death, I don't think you'd be really worrying about what they are going to do, especially if it's only a drink.... He didn't choose to have it, and probably wouldn't have if he was in a normal state.He drank the wine vinegar. It wasn't a sin.
I've always thaught that when he said " I thirst" on the cross, it was deeper of meaning than wanting to drink. He said five marvelous statements on the cross and one was I'm aboout to die. I want a drink. Though the roman soldiers misinterpretated it, I think he was stating he thirsts. Thirsts to be back with his father again, thirsts for the souls of men. And so on. That's what I was taught by the Prophecy Seminar.
I don't drink because the risks--of drunkenness, addiction, impaired judgment, etc.--are too high. To me it's not worth taking these chances. However, I don't believe that we can legitimately use the Bible to declare that those who drink a glass of wine now and then are sinning, especially in light of passages like this:
DT 14:22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice.
If the sin in drinking is getting drunk then I would like to ask DEFINE DRUNK?I totally agree w/you maco and I don't drink either. The sin is not drinking the wine (not grape juice), but getting drunk.
Ever wonder why there is no difference in Greek between grape juice and wine? Or why the Bible says not to drink too much wine? It wouldn't have occurred to me, except that when I lived in Rwanda, there was a lot of controversy in the church about banana juice/wine. and sorghum juice/beer...
We think of wine versus juice because we are accustomed to the one being an intentionally fermented product, and the other intentionally non-fermented, given our industrial society.
In Rwanda, people make banana juice or sorghum juice, using traditional processes. Fresh, both are a pleasant even delicious non-alcoholic drink. Left even 24 hours in traditional storage containers (clay pots, or gourd calabashes), they turn alcoholic - the yeasts are present in the containers (naturally).
But because the maker added no "starter" it is not considered an alcoholic beverage - even when it becomes very strong wine! And the word for each is the same, whether fresh or older (fermented!).
And because both take quite a time to prepare, most homes only do it every couple of weeks... Of course, they have no fridges, no perservatives, and certainly no sterile bottling equipment... like in Bible times.
The intention may have been grape juice, but the result may often have been alcoholic. Which is why deacons were not to be given to much wine... And why Noah got drunk... and why Nazirites were to leave the fruit of the vine alone. One could easily get unintentionally drunk. Which is a far cry from intentionally drinking known fermented wine.
After reading several posts with these overtones, I am convinced that you and some others here feel that you are "stronger"and the rest of us are just weaklings that do not have the faith of someone like you. Is this right?
For someone to boast of this demonstrates their weakness in the faith.
Weaker and Stronger don't refer to faith in the verse from Paul. Rather, I think it refers temptation being resisted.
I think there is a lot of evidence, and a good argument, for the drinking of alcohol being a bad idea. I just disagree with the position that it is sin. It seems to me that some are more than willing to search for sin everywhere, when just obeying what is clearly laid out in the Bible as sin is difficult enough.
Drinking of alcohol is a temptation; one that many of us don't need. It doesn't force any sinful actions though, those are still choices. And it isn't a sinful action in and of itself.
JM
(I was a binge drinker a few years ago)
Christian or non-christian I wouldn't drink because of the major health concerns, and from an experience afew years ago...
So what do you say about Sophia's passage which clearly identifies the wine as having been fermented?
People, we don't have to try to explain the obvious away. It isn't a sin to admit that the Bible does not condemn people for drinking wine. Wine is not sinful.
Again, it is an issue of drunkenness that the Bible condemns, not the wine itself.
In all honesty however, since we all agree that it isn't best to drink wine, what sense is there in debating over this?
So what do you say about Sophia's passage which clearly identifies the wine as having been fermented?
People, we don't have to try to explain the obvious away. It isn't a sin to admit that the Bible does not condemn people for drinking wine. Wine is not sinful.
Again, it is an issue of drunkenness that the Bible condemns, not the wine itself.
In all honesty however, since we all agree that it isn't best to drink wine, what sense is there in debating over this?
"In fact, as I have indicated several times in this and other threads, it is a legalistic approach to argue if this or that is a sin - no matter which side of the fence one is on. Maco's original post is arguing from a legalistic mentality - as do a number of others - despite disclaiming legalism!"
People change daily, principals never do."My point has been and remains that the Word of God gives us principles to live by. One of these is that the body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and that we should not defile it. Again and again scriptures warn us against strong drink. Those who were to be especially dedicated to God's service were to avoid any tendency to strong drink - even unintentionally - hence my post you just quoted. Arguing if it is a sin is, as you say (and as I said before) pointless."
"To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17). "If we know principles of God's word, and refuse to put them into practice, then to us it becomes sin. This is something that goes way beyond whether or not wine is a sin - or any other individual substance or behaviour, named or not in scripture. We are called to repentance, and to living in Christ, and to being transformed into Christ's image. Not to arguing about what constitutes individual sins."
I think we can tell people that drinking wine is sinful! Sure the wine is not a sinful thing... it's just a bunch of atoms minding their own business.
To take it in your body however will produce drunkeness which is sinful! What is drunk?
drunk (drŭngk)
v.
Past participle of drink.
adj.
As soon as you start drinking the wine will start affecting your physical and mental faculties.. after 1 glass you will have measureable impairment of physical and mental faculties. This may be a small impairment but you are still drunk even if you are only a little bit drunk. But being only little bit drunk would surely only be a small sin, and a small sin couldnt possibly effect us.... could it?
- Intoxicated with alcoholic liquor to the point of impairment of physical and mental faculties.
- Caused or influenced by intoxication.
I'm not disagreeing with youNo matter what kind of reasons people give for wine being sinful they still don't negate the fact that God allows His people to drink fermented wine.
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