My church and speaking in tongues.

[AllTalkNoAction]

Kyrie, what it's all about is having a relationship with God where "all things work together for the good".

People do *need* the New Life, God's Spirit within and to build up their faith by praying in the Spirit ("praying in tongues") - communication is an *essential* part of a relationship. That's why we read that "all" speak in tongues immediately when they "receive" God's Spirit, we do NOT read that "some spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit".

"the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Romans 8v26)

Every time you pray in tongues you show the need and get the benefit, how dare you encourage a dumb person or anyone else to doubt what Jesus suffered for by suggesting that maybe God won't give them the healing and blessing they need ?

 

[-Kyriaki-]

i do not discourage their seeking.

what i do discourage is people that seem to think that their being Christian means that they can change the will of God, and that they know better.

healing is real - people should seek it, yes. but those who preach that God's will is that everyone should be healed, immediately that they ask - that is taking away God's free will and making Him into a puppet and distributor of gifts - like santa, rather than the Creator of the universe!

God heals us, yes, but sometimes it is necessary for us to endure trials with our physical bodies that we may grow or glorify Him in our sufferings.

how do i dare? i dare to state that there is a different perspective, that there is a reason that we may not be healed instantly. have you suffered from a chronic illness?

try and put yourself in my shoes. you have a chronic illness, something that interferes with living a normal life and what's more, has external, very noticeable symptoms. you've grown up in the church, in a charismatic church at that, and grown up seeing revival and learning about the God who loves you and created and loves you the way you are. people pray for you for healing but you don't receive it, but you're taught to wait on God because it is His timing and His will, not ours.

then you get to a church where people try to tell you the salvation message and make you pray the sinner's prayer the minute you get inside the door because obviously your lack of healing is evidence that you don't have faith or salvation. you get into the service after finally saying the prayer again to appease the people, and find yourself accosted again by people who lay hands on you, pray for you, try to cast demons out of you, try to push you over and generally yell at you because it doesn't work, as if it's your fault...then you start to believe that is is your fault, and that your view of God that you've held all your life is false.

Jesus came to bring healing and peace, but healing is not just physical - and how can we preach physical healing but destroy the spirit of the person in the process?

put yourself in my shoes and think about it. my story's not as uncommon as you might think, and it's why i'm so opinionated about this issue.

 

[inGodsfootsteps]

Alltalk: i was in a pentecostal church for quite some time. I believe that you are the one misquoting scripture. You do realise that tongues is not the greatest gift of those the Spirit gives don't you? Why put one gift up on a pedestal and not even the greatest of those given.

Yes people need a new life but that doesn't mean if you become a christian everything becomes rosy and all illnesses are healed. There was a great speaker who went around the world preaching the awesome power of healing. Before he became a christian he had a phosphorus grenade shot into his hand in a war, this phosphorus grenade burnt his hand his chest and half his face, leaving horrific scarring. This man then got saved but he still bore the scars. He wasn't automatically healed.

I agree with Kyrie that our infirmities make us humble and they teach us. The verse that talks about trial leading to perserverance and perserverance leading to hope comes to mind. Yes, sometimes people are washed clean of everything when they become a christian and sometimes not. God works in mysterious ways and who are we to know or question the mind of God? We aren't always healed when we become christian. Talking in tongues is overrated. I believe it was paul who said he would rather speak a few words people can understand that build up and edify, then a thousand in tongues. The so called "greatest" apostle certainly doesn't hold tongues in as much regard as he does the other gifts. Personally i'd rather have the gift of prophecy then the gift of tongues that i may edify and build up.

 

[rapturefish]

but on the comment about deaf and dumb people - don't you dare tell me that every christian is healed - that doesn't warrant an answer.

i have a chronic condition that i've had since birth, and no amount of prayer, speaking in tongues, other people speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, faith, fasting, whatever has ever lead to my being healed. God has taught me a lot through my struggles with it, and i see it as my "thorn in the flesh" which keeps me humble and dependent on God. there's a verse that says "it is good to wait upon the Lord", and i've found that more and more true as i've gone through life.

on the other hand, i had another condition that cause major problems for me to just go through life, and only suffered with it a few years before i was healed miraculously, without ever asking - someone just asked to pray for me once, laid hands on my head and i got up off the floor healed.

here's the question for you - why would God heal one (and quite spectacularly) and not the other?

Hi Kyrie,

Thanks for your reply. The comment was in no way intended as a personal one, so while I'm sorry that the comment caused offense I hope that you don't take it as such.

I have read of testimonies of people who have been given the gift of tongues, and they are deaf and dumb. It does not mean they are healed of deafness and/or dumbness. What it means is that they continue to remain unable to speak and/or hear, but when it comes to using a gift of tongues, speaking in languages unknown to them, they are supernaturally enabled to do so.

Not every christian experiences healing for everything, I agree. There could be any number of reasons why healing may not occur, and you've highlighted some of them. Anything from insufficient faith for healing, to a 'thorn in the flesh', to the reasons being a complete mystery can be cited, and the reasons vary from case to case. I remember Smith Wigglesworth had a powerful gift of healing, yet he had a daughter or son (I forget which), a child who remained unable to hear for the rest of their life and Wigglesworth never could heal them. Wigglesworth also wore glasses, and he attributed this to a situation where he chose not to obey God and was therefore reminded of it ever since. Both these could be cited as used to keep him humble, and he accepted them.

I myself know a friend who has bipolar disorder and she has a faith that outshines mine easily. She has led many people to Christ and God has provided for her financially and employment-wise at just the right time on so many occasions. But she remains bipolar. I don't know why, but having asked for healing, there is no reason why she should not keep asking unless God says otherwise. And it remains a mystery, but the good thing is the faith that has been built through it, and that is a major asset to her spiritual life. And it gives meaning and purpose to her condition I guess.

I'm glad for the good things that have come out of your condition and iwsh you more and more of God's blessing on your life as your faith deepens and widens through it.

blessings,

 

[-Kyriaki-]

rapturefish: my deepest apologies, in replying to alltalk i think i missed your post.

deaf and dumb people receiving the gift of tongues like that isn't something i've heard of before, but sounds really interesting.

please don't think any of this about healing was directed at you, you caused me no offense. you seem pretty sensible about this issue actually, which gains my respect.

i thank you for your posts - i'm a bit jaded about the healing issue in the pentecostal/charismatic world (my post above shows this i think) and it's lovely to be proved wrong in my view of the denominations as a whole.

i agree though - just because we didn't receive healing doesn't mean we shouldn't stop praying. all i meant by my comments on that was that God heals in His own time, not ours, so not receiving healing at that point in time is not necessarily our own "fault" but rather just part of God's timing.

thankyou again, and i'm sorry i missed your post before.

 

[rapturefish]

rapturefish: my deepest apologies, in replying to alltalk i think i missed your post.

deaf and dumb people receiving the gift of tongues like that isn't something i've heard of before, but sounds really interesting.

please don't think any of this about healing was directed at you, you caused me no offense. you seem pretty sensible about this issue actually, which gains my respect.

i thank you for your posts - i'm a bit jaded about the healing issue in the pentecostal/charismatic world (my post above shows this i think) and it's lovely to be proved wrong in my view of the denominations as a whole.

i agree though - just because we didn't receive healing doesn't mean we shouldn't stop praying. all i meant by my comments on that was that God heals in His own time, not ours, so not receiving healing at that point in time is not necessarily our own "fault" but rather just part of God's timing.

thankyou again, and i'm sorry i missed your post before.

Hi Kyrie,

No worries, mate, glad we could clear that up.

I agree, healing is a grace, which means that it is given dependent on God's desire and will and ultimately does not depend on what we do.

God bless,

RF !^)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for the replies so far.

That was the first thing I'd ever heard about speaking tongues, I guess I've kinda grown up not trusting it, but now I'm strangely fascinated by it.

Nice to see another Kiwi on the forum.

I have heard the stories about tongues like that too where people have said terrible things. But I think these incidents are pretty rare. I was a Pentecostal for 12 years, and have been involved with different types of Charismatics in different traditional denominations over the years. So, after 39 years, I have never had personal experience of the dark side of tongues.

I have had two experiences of tongues being understood and what was said was very positive. One involved a prayer group where a close friend of mine was speaking in tongues and an African brother heard his own village dialect being spoken, and God was saying very uplifting and encouranging things to him. My own personal experience was in a church meeting where I was quietly praying in tongues for people who were being ministered to. A Maori lady sitting beside me told me that I was speaking in the Maori language and that God had given her a personal message of encouragement.

I have a couple of links that may help you:

http://personal-communication.net.nz/1Corinthians14.html
and
http://personal-communication.net.nz/baptism.htm

These articles may give you some insights that might help you along the way.

Cheers

 

[godwants]

Just keep hanging out with those people and study your Bible Acts 2
The Bible says that we don't know how to pray so He helps us.