my challenge to predestination

zaida · Oct 17, 2014

(I am truly interested in a friendly, christian debate on this - please read this and answer)

I saw a debate where someone argued pre-destination is merciful, because if God chooses to save ANY sinner who doesn't deserve it, thats merciful. But I have an analogy, that helped me see why I still think its un-merciful (and therefore wrong theology) -

Lets say I have 5 children (I only have 2 but lets just say). We have a day out in which they are all total nightmares, Fighting, horrible, mean, whiny, you name it. At the end of the day, I say "well - all 5 of you were nightmares - but randomly, I am choosing you 3 for ice cream cones, and you two don't get any. None of you deserve it - but in my mercy, because Im so loving, 3 of you will get ice cream anyway (undeserved), and 2 will simply get what they deserve -nothing, no treat."

To me, that scenario shows me as randomly giving 3 people something undeserved, while 2 watch on, sad, upset, envious, and traumatized, actually. Any mother who did that would be vilified!

Contrast the mother who says "none of you deserve ice cream, but I love you, will forgive you and give to everyone". OR the mother who says "none of you deserve ice cream - but I will pour my love onto you, (graces), and ask you to try your best with your behaviour, confess when you fall down,and reward you based on your efforts, however weak".

Those two mothers will be seen as more fair and merciful as the first. And like my scenario, we are Gods children, and he would not randomly choose some of us, while leaving the rest distraught.

abacabb3 · Oct 17, 2014

It is interesting thatyou take issue with predestination, not un biblical grounds. I don't want to believe in predestination sometimes, however, it's not about what I want or think makes sense, rather it is simply what the Bible literally says.

That aside, here is where you analogy breaks down:

"To me, that scenario shows me as randomly giving 3 people something undeserved, while 2 watch on, sad, upset, envious, and traumatized, actually. Any mother who did that would be vilified!"

If those 2 children that were nightmares did not deserve ice cream cones, let's be honest, all five of those children deserve eternal hellfire. So, whether or not they are traumatized by not being gracious selected, which in reality the non-believers never are, then who cares? They deserve damnation.

I deserve damnation. I deserve being traumatized. I deserve worse than what I have. Yet, God is gracious and He is good to me and I have not compelled Him to be by any good works of mine.

zaida · Oct 17, 2014

acacabb3 - thank you for your response. I guess I see the Bible very differently, in a much more hopeful way. The thing I love about my faith, and how we read the Bible, is how we do both/and. People are both sinners AND children of God. We are saved by grace AND our response to grace. Jesus must save us AND how He saves us is up to him.

There is plenty of evidence in the Bible that man is not all depraved, that God came to save us all and that as well as being sinners, we are made in Gods image, and loved by God. All over the psalms!

There is also evidence against election.

"I was hungry and you fed me" (when you fed the least of these my brethren)...THATS how I know you are mine..."to those who are given much, much will be expected"....."the parable of the talents" (use my graces for my glory - and when you do you will be rewarded).....Saint Paul - "those who follow their consciences, as written on their heart, are doing Gods will" (paraphrased)....."God so loved the world that he sent his only son to save those who believe in him"...."in the second Adam, he came to save ALL"....."they will know you are my disciples by your love for each other".....the entire good Samaritan parable....Mary's "Magnificat" - He came for all nations.....

No - I don't think we are simply depraved beings, with God kindly choosing a few of us...the whole depravity teaching (to me) flies in the face of the whole gospel of John.....I think we are sinners, and God came to save each and every one of us, and we must respond to that Grace.....Jesus looked with compassion on all who approached him....

To me, the most disturbing part of election, is those who believe in it always assume they are the elect. I wonder, in honesty, how many tell their own kids "you may not be one of the elect and you may be doomed to suffer forever - and there is not a thing you can do about it"......if we are honest, and believe in election, we would have to teach our children that.

I have become really interested in this topic (through a funny means...discovering author Marilynne Robinson, who I love, and has taught me some of the beauty of Calvinism) But election - no - it flies in the face of love, mercy, grace, all encompassing love, free will, and all the gospels.

I do appreciate you engaging with me on this -

zaida · Oct 17, 2014

and by the way - your "who cares" question? I do - very much. I want everyone saved - as a Christian, we must hope for the salvation of all - I'm not saying that is what happens - but christian hope and love and forgiveness and compassion demands that we hope and pray for it - I'm surprised anyone would say "who cares" about the lost- what if its me, my child, my husband, my mom, my friend??? Don't you care??????

BryanW92 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
To me, that scenario shows me as randomly giving 3 people something undeserved, while 2 watch on, sad, upset, envious, and traumatized, actually. Any mother who did that would be vilified!

The keys to the flaws in your argument are in those sentences above.

1) Without God, none of the 5 would know what ice cream even is. So, assume that all 5 had spent their entire life being told by the world that ice cream is stupid and superstitious. Then, you give 3 of them the ice cream and you don't give it to two of them. The two of them with ice cream might just say, "I'm glad you gave that stuff to those other three."

2) Who can villify God? The mother of the five children is a slave to peer pressure if she worries about being villified by her peer group for something as insignificant as ice cream. After all, she did create all five children. She feeds them and cleans them and clothes them. Who has the right to tell her who gets ice cream and who doesn't? God has no peers, so there's no "other God" out there to say, "Wow, man. You're a bad God."

abacabb3 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
and by the way - your "who cares" question? I do - very much. I want everyone saved - as a Christian, we must hope for the salvation of all - I'm not saying that is what happens - but christian hope and love and forgiveness and compassion demands that we hope and pray for it - I'm surprised anyone would say "who cares" about the lost- what if its me, my child, my husband, my mom, my friend??? Don't you care??????

You quoted me out of context. I said "who cares" someone is traumatized. Of course we care whether someone is saved. In fact, I care that unbeleivers are damned. However, I don't care even more because the damned person suffers from increased mental trauma on top of the fact the said person is going to burn in hell forever.

Again, I reiterate, do you have a Biblical issue with Predestination?

BryanW92 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
To me, the most disturbing part of election, is those who believe in it always assume they are the elect. I wonder, in honesty, how many tell their own kids "you may not be one of the elect and you may be doomed to suffer forever - and there is not a thing you can do about it"......if we are honest, and believe in election, we would have to teach our children that.

I have only embraced Reformed Theology in the past year. Prior to that, I was a Methodist who had no use for predestination, the elect, or Calvin. I have argued against Calvinism. I have taught the errors of Cavinism. I have even preached on Calvinism vs Arminianism.

On the Arminian side of the fence, we teach that predestination is God dragging people against their will to heaven to serve him, and it is also God slamming the door in the face of people who truly want to be with him.

But, even in Arminian theology, we teach that God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us desire him and to interpret scripture.

So, if we all get that as a birthright, then why do some throw it back in God's face and say "no thanks"? Why do some have a dramatic conversion event? I was an atheist for 30 years and became a person who desired Christ in the blink of an eye. Why would the "fair God" of the Arminians give me that not-so-gentle nudge and leave my brother an agnostic?

My conversion was not my idea. I didn't want it. I wasn't asking for answers. I had a very comfortable life without God: no money problems, marital problems, health problems, etc. There was no reason for me to suddenly need to be a Christian. If I had been asked, my answer would have been a firm "no".

For several years, I admitted that God came and snatched me out of my comfortable, secular life even as I called Calvinism a heresy. But, about a year ago, I began to see God's sovereignty as what it really is. It took me almost an entire year to do the studying and praying necessary to come to accept what he did for me as his actions and not mine. I did not decide to follow. I was drafted.

zaida · Oct 17, 2014

good discussion guys and gals - thank you -

I wonder if you'd address my question about telling your children they might be damned.

Bryanw92 - no - I'm sorry, the ice cream for 3 instead of 5 is extremely unloving....I cannot define that as "love" and don't think I ever will! Its cruelty.

abacabb3 - sorry I misunderstood your "who cares" - got your point now!

yes, I do have biblical problems with the elect/pre destination....as often as the word "elect" is mentioned, our free will is mentioned more....I think if we are going to go down the biblical route, it is pretty clear that it is UNclear.....and I find more evidence for God being ALL loving, ALL compassionate, and willing the saving of ALL His children.....loads of biblical evidence for that! And for our need to cooperate with that.

BryanW92 - I am pleased that God snatched you- but like the Catholic I am I believe that YOU have the free will to cooperate with that grace, or not - God made us thinking, feeling, choosing, human beings, and its not love if we do not do it freely, as a response to his Great Grace!

stenerson · Oct 17, 2014

There's a couple of flaws in your argument.. One is the sentimental notion that all fallen humanity are the children of God, and that God has a obligation to cherish all and treat all as we should treat our children. Mankind is desperately wicked, at enmity with God, unclean things obnoxious to God ,and that can not approach God (without a mediator).. Once we are adopted into His family through His beloved Son that's another story.
You also said:

There is also evidence against election.

"I was hungry and you fed me" (when you fed the least of these my brethren)...THATS how I know you are mine..."to those who are given much, much will be expected"....."the parable of the talents" (use my graces for my glory - and when you do you will be rewarded).

You misunderstand that passage. Christ is not speaking concerning how every one treats everyone else in general (though that will also be judged).. Here He is specifically speaking concerning how the "least of these His bethren" were treated. The least of these are His elect, His sheep, His bethren adopted into His family. You are taking that out of context.

abacabb3 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
We are saved by grace AND our response to grace.

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).

Jesus must save us AND how He saves us is up to him.

Where does it say Jesus "must"? How He does is by His atoning sacrifice on the cross. We are righteous by out faith in His finished work on that cross and ressurrection.

There is plenty of evidence in the Bible that man is not all depraved...

Rom 3:10 says there is "none righteous." Does none mean some? Rom 3:11 says that "none seek after God." Does none mean some?

Are you aware that the 1994 Catholic Catechism teaches:

The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: ‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.’[Matthew 4:17]. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high…The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

So, you are teaching by both your religion's, and ours, heresy.

All over the psalms!

Can you provide citations?

"I was hungry and you fed me" (when you fed the least of these my brethren)...THATS how I know you are mine..."to those who are given much, much will be expected"....."the parable of the talents" (use my graces for my glory - and when you do you will be rewarded).....Saint Paul - "those who follow their consciences, as written on their heart, are doing Gods will" (paraphrased)....."God so loved the world that he sent his only son to save those who believe in him"...."in the second Adam, he came to save ALL"....."they will know you are my disciples by your love for each other".....the entire good Samaritan parable....Mary's "Magnificat" - He came for all nations.....

These are all over the place and do not abrogate the obvious:

"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight" (Eph 1:4).

...the whole depravity teaching (to me) flies in the face of the whole gospel of John.....

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44).

To me, the most disturbing part of election, is those who believe in it always assume they are the elect.

Ultimately, God only knows if anyone's confession of faith is true, including your own and my own.

I do appreciate you engaging with me on this -

I do the same, you are very welcome.

If you don't mind me asking, can you answer the following question: "What must I do to be saved?"

abacabb3 · Oct 17, 2014

BryanW92 said:
I have only embraced Reformed Theology in the past year. Prior to that, I was a Methodist who had no use for predestination, the elect, or Calvin. I have argued against Calvinism. I have taught the errors of Cavinism. I have even preached on Calvinism vs Arminianism.

On the Arminian side of the fence, we teach that predestination is God dragging people against their will to heaven to serve him, and it is also God slamming the door in the face of people who truly want to be with him.

But, even in Arminian theology, we teach that God gives us the Holy Spirit to help us desire him and to interpret scripture.

So, if we all get that as a birthright, then why do some throw it back in God's face and say "no thanks"? Why do some have a dramatic conversion event? I was an atheist for 30 years and became a person who desired Christ in the blink of an eye. Why would the "fair God" of the Arminians give me that not-so-gentle nudge and leave my brother an agnostic?

My conversion was not my idea. I didn't want it. I wasn't asking for answers. I had a very comfortable life without God: no money problems, marital problems, health problems, etc. There was no reason for me to suddenly need to be a Christian. If I had been asked, my answer would have been a firm "no".

For several years, I admitted that God came and snatched me out of my comfortable, secular life even as I called Calvinism a heresy. But, about a year ago, I began to see God's sovereignty as what it really is. It took me almost an entire year to do the studying and praying necessary to come to accept what he did for me as his actions and not mine. I did not decide to follow. I was drafted.

Hallejulah!

BryanW92 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
Bryanw92 - no - I'm sorry, the ice cream for 3 instead of 5 is extremely unloving....I cannot define that as "love" and don't think I ever will! Its cruelty.

But without God's grace, none of the five even knows that ice cream is good. That is the heart of Reform theology. If a person truly desires God, then they are one of the elect. The rest of humanity is too depraved, or as R. C. Sproul puts it: too "radically corrupted" to even care if God exists, except as a vague nature spirit or extension of our own wonderfulness or some other humanist/paganist form of God.

But, forget the ice cream. Let's say that you are offering broccoli. Three of the five like broccoli and two hate it (because they've never even given it a fair chance). Is it the loving mother than gives all five a heaping helping of broccoli and then demands that they sit there until it is all consumed, even if it means that two of them sit there all night? After all, it is good for them.

BryanW92 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
BryanW92 - I am pleased that God snatched you- but like the Catholic I am I believe that YOU have the free will to cooperate with that grace, or not - God made us thinking, feeling, choosing, human beings, and its not love if we do not do it freely, as a response to his Great Grace!

But we do have a free will. I was an atheist for 30 years. I chose to ignore whatever calls he gave me for all that time. I spent those decades ridiculing Christians for their silly, superstitions. I pointed out televangelists and pedophile priests as proof that clergy is corrupt. I pointed out the Christians I knew who lied, cheated, and committed sexual sins as proof that Christians are hypocrites. I listened to well-meaning, but poorly-educated Christians try to be apologists and ripped their arguments to shreds.

And then he removed the scales from my eyes one afternoon while I was just watching TV. I can't being to describe the powerful call that he gave he that day. I can't reiterate enough that I didn't want it or ask for it. I would have refused it if I had felt that I had the power to do so.

The important thing is that it doesn't matter what you or I believe. If you think that you have free will to ignore or deny the Creator of the universe, then go ahead. If I think that I can't deny him, then I can function like that. In truth, the Christian who believes in free will and that Jesus is Lord is one of the Elect; and the Christian who believes in predestination and that Jesus is Lord has made a decision. We both came to the exact same place through Grace.

zaida · Oct 17, 2014

Hi Bryan -

Im not "getting" your broccoli analogy, lol! explain more?

as for this (quoting you)

"But without God's grace, none of the five even knows that ice cream is good. That is the heart of Reform theology. If a person truly desires God, then they are one of the elect. The rest of humanity is too depraved, or as R. C. Sproul puts it: too "radically corrupted" to even care if God exists, except as a vague nature spirit or extension of our own wonderfulness or some other humanist/paganist form of God."

"If a person truly desires God, they are one of the elect" - which comes first - the desire, or the election? I believe it is a process - God loves and wants us all to love him - those who desire him and act according to the truth they know - God will then accept them in his glory. He wont "force" this, because love cannot be forced. he will shower his grace and look for our response.

And as for the "radically corrupted" - or "too depraved" - nope - don't believe that - Bible says we were made in his image - the whole of the Bible has too much evidence that God considers us precious in His sight - "oh Jeruselum, how I have longed to gather you" - just read Luke twice over recently, and struck by the JOY and beauty of our Lord, and also of His suffering and sinful children. "God so loved the world".

abacabb3 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
"If a person truly desires God, they are one of the elect" - which comes first - the desire, or the election?

According to Roman Catholic Church and Scripture, it is the election. It chronologically occurred before man even existed.

BryanW92 · Oct 17, 2014

zaida said:
Hi Bryan -

Im not "getting" your broccoli analogy, lol! explain more?

as for this (quoting you)

"But without God's grace, none of the five even knows that ice cream is good. That is the heart of Reform theology. If a person truly desires God, then they are one of the elect. The rest of humanity is too depraved, or as R. C. Sproul puts it: too "radically corrupted" to even care if God exists, except as a vague nature spirit or extension of our own wonderfulness or some other humanist/paganist form of God."

"If a person truly desires God, they are one of the elect" - which comes first - the desire, or the election? I believe it is a process - God loves and wants us all to love him - those who desire him and act according to the truth they know - God will then accept them in his glory. He wont "force" this, because love cannot be forced. he will shower his grace and look for our response.

And as for the "radically corrupted" - or "too depraved" - nope - don't believe that - Bible says we were made in his image - the whole of the Bible has too much evidence that God considers us precious in His sight - "oh Jeruselum, how I have longed to gather you" - just read Luke twice over recently, and struck by the JOY and beauty of our Lord, and also of His suffering and sinful children. "God so loved the world".

We are made in his image. Then, we were corrupted in way that we are unable to redeem ourselves. Yes, he longs to gather us. But we are too filthy to be in his presence. If your child is covered in mud, do you let him come in the house and sit on the sofa? No, you clean him and you make sure that you clean him sufficiently for your standards, and just as clean as he feels that he should be.

God's just standard is perfection. Nothing else counts. He had to dean us by giving us the flawless life of Christ and perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Because he "so loved the world".

So, which comes first, desire or election? The Holy Spirit is sent by God to give you a desire so election must come first.

But, the love isn't forced. This was what I taught when I was Arminian and trying to debunk Calvinism. The love is natural. In fact it is the most natural love there is. Our inner spiritual being (that is corrupted by the flesh and Original Sin) desires God ore than anything, but the flesh being desires things of the flesh. When God sends the Holy Spirit to one of his elect, it awakens the spiritual being and strengthens him to overcome the flesh. You aren't forced to love God. You are given the strength to overcome the part of you that doesn't love God.

zaida · Oct 18, 2014

guys I will answer these questions soon...on a different time thingy than you all (live in UK) so was asleep when many of these posts came in, and now I have to share this computer with the kiddies. Might I just say - I do think you are misunderstanding Catholic theology - I see you quoted the catechism - Catholics ABSOLUTELY believe we are responsible for whether we are saved or not - that God gives ALL MEN the graces to be saved, and we are saved as to how we respond - in free will - and thats why we believe even muslims, jews, athiests can be saved, even people who never uttered the name Christ - BUT the saving comes through Christ - I will post some stuff soon -

zaida · Oct 18, 2014

some more quotes from catechism

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337"

actually this whole passage is beautiful

"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

zaida · Oct 18, 2014

please read the catechism sections above - my little plug for my faith lol - its such a beautiful statement of faith -

I do think part of our debate regards who "all Gods children" are - Catholics believe every soul on this earth is one of Gods children. He has asked us to go out and preach to all nations; "gentiles and jews"; he has wanted to gather all his children into his arms;
Colossians 1:20. 19 For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Romans 11:32: For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

Just a few of the quotes from scripture Ive had in my mind, and looked up the refs.

You all seem to "limit" who the "all" is or who the children are Jesus refers to - we Catholics dont limit it. We say the all is - well, all.

And then God asks us to respond to his graces.

zaida · Oct 18, 2014

ps - still waiting for the answer to the "would you teach your children" question...think its important...if its true and its beautiful and merciful, then you would happily teach your children 'you might be damned and can do nothing about it..."?

Ive noticed that what we openly teach our children forces us to think very clearly about what we believe - Ive certainly had to do that.

my challenge to predestination

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