My Best Friend Just "Came Out" and I Don't Know What to Do

[Luther073082]

Deut 7: This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

By your reasoning we should put all non-Christian places of worship to the torch, and probably slaughter the worshippers if you want to get technical.

Thankfully, we have been freed from such requirements of the law by Christ who fulfilled all the requirements of the law on our behalf, including the requirement to personally inform every individual of every infraction of God's perfect law.

Perhaps we should now spend our time protecting and providing for our neighbor's welfare and leave preaching the law to those ordained for that purpose.

On top of that when we look at the NT and it talks about dealing with sinners around us, it is almost always in the context of people within the church engaging in sin.

If we where to point out the sins of every person outside of the church who engaged in sin we would literally be doing nothing else with our lives but telling everyone they are sinning.

 

[Luther073082]

So ... you're the second person who takes VDMA statement of "my best friend" and rationalizes into " to personally inform every individual of every infraction " ..... and that's how you and Luther073082 feel about your "best friend" ?

Based on how you are applying the scripture it can only be reasoned that you mean that you must inform every single person whom you meet about every single infraction of God's law.

I'm trying to picture this scenario: your "best friend" standing next to you in front of God being judged and you watch him being sent to hell. Just how exactly are you providing for his welfare .... ?

And how are you providing for the welfare of your neighbor who takes God's name in vain unless you are informing him of his grave sins?

Again what you are going to apply to one sin you must apply to every sin. Your scriptures never stated "only do this with homosexuality" or "Only do this with sexual sins"

Sadly many Christians these days think sexual sins are the only real sins.

 

[twin.spin]

Based on how you are applying the scripture it can only be reasoned that you mean that you must inform every single person whom you meet about every single infraction of God's law..

Well ... you must have a whole different comprehension of who is "my best friend" is ... to continually link it to "every person".

And how are you providing for the welfare of your neighbor who takes God's name in vain unless you are informing him of his grave sins?

Again what you are going to apply to one sin you must apply to every sin. Your scriptures never stated "only do this with homosexuality" or "Only do this with sexual sins"

Sadly many Christians these days think sexual sins are the only real sins.

You know ... in other Christian forums that I frequent, this is the same line of arguing we hear from atheists, those who reject the Bible as God's Word, those who are universalists ... and those who approve of such behavior of others who practice it (for multiple of reasons).

Maybe one of the reason why it's on the radar is probably due to the secular demanding the Christian to accept it as normal etc. and if not you're accused of being discriminative, homophobe, unenlightened ya da, ya da, ya da.

 

[Luther073082]

Well ... you must have a whole different comprehension of who is "my best friend" is ... to continually link it to "every person".

Let me check that scripture again because I'm pretty sure the way it was worded seemed to indicate everyone you meet. Not just your "best friend"

Lets see

"When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself."

Yeah pretty much it says all wicked people (all sinners). So why are you applying it suddenly to only the best friend. Why not that guy at the barber shop that you overhear in passing is living with his girlfriend?

Do you have any divorced friends who divorced for reasons other then adultery or abandonment? Did you inform them that God hates divorce???

You know ... in other Christian forums that I frequent, this is the same line of arguing we hear from atheists, those who reject the Bible as God's Word, those who are universalists ... and those who approve of such behavior of others who practice it (for multiple of reasons).

That does not make it a bad question. Why is it you only apply this to sexual sins?

Maybe one of the reason why it's on the radar is probably due to the secular demanding the Christian to accept it as normal etc. and if not you're accused of being discriminative, homophobe, unenlightened ya da, ya da, ya da.

Or perhaps it's worthwhile to point out that many Christians who flip out upon hearing that someone is gay pay no attention when someone take's God's name in vain.

Oh and for the record HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL Why? Because SIN IS NORMAL

Normality of course does not make something right, however Christians are always worried about homosexuality being "normalized". That train already passed when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Since then sin became normal on earth. What makes homosexuality so different from any of the others?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

<snip>

Oh and for the record HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL Why? Because SIN IS NORMAL

Normality of course does not make something right, however Christians are always worried about homosexuality being "normalized". That train already passed when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Since then sin became normal on earth. What makes homosexuality so different from any of the others?

Sin is NOT normal, first of all.

And I truly believe that the reason why homosexuality is "different" is because there's a huge push to "normalize" it in society. I don't see the adulterers and thieves of the world pushing for equality and acceptance. Homosexuality is one of the few sins that many people try to pushy as acceptable and not against God's word. The bible speaks of sexual immorality and talks about how it is wrong, but you'll find a lot of Christians who disagree as to whether homosexuality is included in sexual immorality.

I think the OP should let his best friend know what he believes and how he feels about homosexuality, just as as if he were talking to a friend who had moved in with his girlfriend and was having sex before they were married. But the point need not be pounded and beat into the best friend's head. That is not how souls are brought to Jesus. We need to make sure we have equal parts law and gospel.

 

[twin.spin]

Let me check that scripture again because I'm pretty sure the way it was worded seemed to indicate everyone you meet. Not just your "best friend"

Lets see

"When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself."

Yeah pretty much it says all wicked people (all sinners). So why are you applying it suddenly to only the best friend. Why not that guy at the barber shop that you overhear in passing is living with his girlfriend?

Do you have any divorced friends who divorced for reasons other then adultery or abandonment? Did you inform them that God hates divorce???

Well .. you again are deliberately changing what has been said.

God used the singular " to a wicked person"
into your " it says all wicked people "

Sorry .. just ain't buying it.

I have heard this too many times where people who use this line of reasoning are positioning this into terms that is a insinuating that those who oppose homosexuality on a Biblical basis are hypocrites.

That does not make it a bad question. Why is it you only apply this to sexual sins?

Or perhaps it's worthwhile to point out that many Christians who flip out upon hearing that someone is gay pay no attention when someone take's God's name in vain.

What is becoming apparent is that you're attempting to justify this in some way by making these hypothetical accusation sounding questions .. and speaking of Christians as if being disassociated from being a personal attribute.

Something just doesn't sound right ....

Oh and for the record HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL Why? Because SIN IS NORMAL

Normality of course does not make something right, however Christians are always worried about homosexuality being "normalized". That train already passed when Adam and Eve ate the fruit. Since then sin became normal on earth. What makes homosexuality so different from any of the others?

Sorry ... you maybe meaning it in a certain way but to these eyes we are worlds apart.

 

[Luther073082]

Sin is NOT normal, first of all.

Really, know any non-sinners? I'd certainly like to meet them. Sin in this world is normal. It may not have been what God intended of this world, but it is normal in the fact that every day life is filled with sin.

Normal: conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected. -- It is standard, usual, typical, and expected that every person you meet is a sinner that engages in sin. Most likely on a daily basis.

Or if you prefer

Normal: the usual, average, or typical state or condition. -- Sin is at this time the usual, average, and typical condition of this world.

I've never met a person who wasn't a sinner. I only know of one person throughout all of human history that wasn't a sinner. Therefore I would say that being a sinner is normal. And since sinners engage in sin that makes sin pretty normal for this world.

And I truly believe that the reason why homosexuality is "different" is because there's a huge push to "normalize" it in society. I don't see the adulterers and thieves of the world pushing for equality and acceptance. Homosexuality is one of the few sins that many people try to pushy as acceptable and not against God's word. The bible speaks of sexual immorality and talks about how it is wrong, but you'll find a lot of Christians who disagree as to whether homosexuality is included in sexual immorality.

No but fornicators have already normalized themselves into society. Divorcee's have already normalized themselves into society.
Blasphemers have normalized themselves into society.

Homosexuality is one of many sins that people have gave acceptance too already.

 

[Luther073082]

Well .. you again are deliberately changing what has been said.

God used the singular " to a wicked person"
into your " it says all wicked people "

Sorry .. just ain't buying it.

Every wicked person is A wicked person. If you meet A wicked person you should inform them about their sins. That is what the scripture says, you are the one who is trying to change it to fit your needs.

I have heard this too many times where people who use this line of reasoning are positioning this into terms that is a insinuating that those who oppose homosexuality on a Biblical basis are hypocrites.

Don't get me wrong I believe it's a sin. However I also notice quite a bit of difference in reaction on this sin from others.

You still refuse to answer my questions for the record. I'm pretty consistent actually, if someone is in the church and sinning I would inform them as such.

Outside of the church I do no such thing.

What is becoming apparent is that you're attempting to justify this in some way by making these hypothetical accusation sounding questions .. and speaking of Christians as if being disassociated from being a personal attribute.

No you are trying to justify hitting someone who is homosexual as hard as you can with the law while ignoring pretty much every other sin in every other person.

If he had come in and said his friend was getting divorced would your reaction have been the same?

Sorry ... you maybe meaning it in a certain way but to these eyes we are worlds apart.

Yes I believe there are sins other then homosexual acts and treat all sins the same.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Really, know any non-sinners? I'd certainly like to meet them. Sin in this world is normal. It may not have been what God intended of this world, but it is normal in the fact that every day life is filled with sin.

Normal: conforming to a standard; usual, typical, or expected. -- It is standard, usual, typical, and expected that every person you meet is a sinner that engages in sin. Most likely on a daily basis.

Or if you prefer

Normal: the usual, average, or typical state or condition. -- Sin is at this time the usual, average, and typical condition of this world.

I've never met a person who wasn't a sinner. I only know of one person throughout all of human history that wasn't a sinner. Therefore I would say that being a sinner is normal. And since sinners engage in sin that makes sin pretty normal for this world.

Again, sin is not normal. It is a part of this world, but it is NOT normal.

No but fornicators have already normalized themselves into society. Divorcee's have already normalized themselves into society.
Blasphemers have normalized themselves into society.

Not really. There's still laws on the book against adultery. It is still frowned upon and there's no law that says it's okay for a husband to cheat on his wife and vice versa.

I haven't seen an adulterers pride parade, either.

And be careful how you handle divorcees. There are several of us here whose divorces were biblical.

Homosexuality is one of many sins that people have gave acceptance too already.

I think you missed my point.

At any rate, I still believe you need law and gospel. In order for people to understand why there is a gospel, they need to know the law. As Jesus said, he came to heal the sick. But the sick don't always know they're sick.

 

[Luther073082]

Again, sin is not normal. It is a part of this world, but it is NOT normal.

Please explain to me how you define the word normal and how sin is not normal in this world.

Because I define it based on what is typical and I would say sin is pretty typical in this world.

Not really. There's still laws on the book against adultery. It is still frowned upon and there's no law that says it's okay for a husband to cheat on his wife and vice versa.

I haven't seen an adulterers pride parade, either.

I didn't say adulterers I said fornicators. Sex between two people who are not married has already gained acceptance in this society. So much acceptance that they don't even have to have a parade.

So much acceptance that I have seen, on far too many occasions men standing next to their pregnant girlfriends that they live with talk about how offensive homosexuality is to God and completely fail to see their own hypocrisy.

And be careful how you handle divorcees. There are several of us here whose divorces were biblical.

True enough, however there are a lot of divorcee's who's divorces where not biblical and they have also gained acceptance in this society.

But the sick don't always know they're sick.

The whole world is sick.

 

[twin.spin]

Every wicked person is A wicked person. If you meet A wicked person you should inform them about their sins. That is what the scripture says, you are the one who is trying to change it to fit your needs.

If that is what scripture says ... then why aren't you doing what scripture says?

Could it be that secular libertarian apathy attitude exemplified in the motto "who are you to tell me what's right or not"

Don't get me wrong I believe it's a sin. However I also notice quite a bit of difference in reaction on this sin from others.

You still refuse to answer my questions for the record. I'm pretty consistent actually, if someone is in the church and sinning I would inform them as such.

Outside of the church I do no such thing.

Refuse to answer .... yea right.

original answer:

your point is what .... ease your conscience by manufacturing plausible
scenarios hoping to point out I'm the bigger hypocrite ?
​

expanding on the original answer:

I have heard this too many times where people who use this line of
reasoning are positioning this into terms that is a insinuating that those
who oppose homosexuality on a Biblical basis are hypocrites.
​

No you are trying to justify hitting someone who is homosexual as hard as you can with the law while ignoring pretty much every other sin in every other person.

Really .. and you know this how?

If he had come in and said his friend was getting divorced would your reaction have been the same?

I guess you're going to define what you mean ... since "best friend" in your world is equal to "everybody" .

In a normal world of understanding of the English language, when I hear someone refer to somebody else as "best friend", there is a different personal relationship between the two than a person and "everybody".

As far as how would I react ... it would depend on the attitude of divorce being spoken of. If the divorce was done as "so what, it's normal, I got a right to do it ect. " then yes.

My former pastor said: "afflict the comfortable \ comfort the afflicted."

Yes I believe there are sins other then homosexual acts and treat all sins the same.

Yea I that is a fair statement ... as a Libertarian if it only concerns certain individuals which primarily is self, you treat it apathetically.

 

[twin.spin]

Please explain to me how you define the word normal and how sin is not normal in this world.

Because I define it based on what is typical and I would say sin is pretty typical in this world..

In the context of human sexuality .... "normal" is the original intent designed by God which is 1 male \ 1 female as God defines it as "natural relations" Romans 1:26-27 and it was meant for the betterment of humanity and the creation. Genesis 1:28


Therefore, you by defining sin \ homosexual sin as "normal" is very closely insinuating what certain cults like LDS who view sin as beneficial and those who approve of homosexuality by shifting the responsibility off the sinner and point towards God.

 

[Studeclunker]

So my best friend, who I've been friends with for a number of years, recently came out as Gay.

I will be baptized, confirmed, and come into communion with the LCMS in a little over a month, and though he will always be my friend, I cannot find it within myself to speak to him honestly about this decision without hurting his feelings.

I stand firmly behind my belief that homosexuality is a Sin and perversion of God's law, but I also believe that we are all sinners.

He is not Christian (in fact he is far from any religion) but I still feel he needs to hear my perspective.

The problem is I don't know how to handle the discussion without sounding rude and judgmental.

I would really appreciate some help in how to handle this.

I've had this happen to me. My response to my friend was, "yes, and your point is?" He pressed me to accept him as he was. My response was, "Well, I have my own faults and struggles as well. Again, what's your point?" My friend pressed me further saying there was no sin in his behaviour. I told him no matter what he did or did not do he was damned because he didn't believe in Christ. His homosexuality was incedental. I also pointed out to him much of what has been, rather heatedly, discussed here. The way I presented it to him was; Homosexuality is a sin that could ultimately destroy him much like giving in to any other sin. That without Christ, I was in just as much doo-doo as he was. Any sin that becomes the focus of one's life is capable of dragging anyone to Hell.


Your friend's sexual orientation is not the issue at hand. His unbelief and denial of Christ is. Don't make a big deal out of it (homosexuality), leave it alone. Work on presenting the Gospel message and address the sin issue when you are both working on the same page, as it were. Until he recognizes and accepts the concept he is a sinner, you are going to be unable to address his sin. However, when he finally sees the truth in Biblical Law, it will convict him and he will seek the refuge the Gospel presents in Christ.

Humility is crucial in delivering this kind of message. Prayer is essential.


Who knows but that you were introduced to this fellow in the first place as a worker through the Holy Spirit to save him? Or perhaps you might just be someone through whom he will recieve the message.

One more thing: as you move closer to Christ, these kind of crises will occur. Do you not think the Devil will use those in his sway to weaken and ultimately destroy your faith? Old Scratch rarely goes at us with a frontal attack. He is a master of attacking our flanks through family and friends. Christ warned us that these divisions would occur.

 

[Luther073082]

In the context of human sexuality .... "normal" is the original intent designed by God which is 1 male \ 1 female as God defines it as "natural relations" Romans 1:26-27 and it was meant for the betterment of humanity and the creation. Genesis 1:28


Therefore, you by defining sin \ homosexual sin as "normal" is very closely insinuating what certain cults like LDS who view sin as beneficial and those who approve of homosexuality by shifting the responsibility off the sinner and point towards God.

Except the term normal is not defined by intent. It's defined by what is typical.

 

[Luther073082]

If that is what scripture says ... then why aren't you doing what scripture says?

Could it be that secular libertarian apathy attitude exemplified in the motto "who are you to tell me what's right or not"

Except I read the scripture you pointed out as specific instructions to the prophet, not a general command.

Since you see it as a general command why don't you explain to me why YOU arn't don't what scripture says.

Refuse to answer .... yea right.

original answer:

your point is what .... ease your conscience by manufacturing plausible
scenarios hoping to point out I'm the bigger hypocrite ?
​

expanding on the original answer:

I have heard this too many times where people who use this line of
reasoning are positioning this into terms that is a insinuating that those
who oppose homosexuality on a Biblical basis are hypocrites.
​

That doesn't answer the question, the question being is why are you not informing every person you come across who is engaged in sin of their sins?

Really .. and you know this how?

Please tell me when the last time you warned a person outside of the church of the sinfulness of their course of action that didn't involve homosexuality.

I guess you're going to define what you mean ... since "best friend" in your world is equal to "everybody" .

In a normal world of understanding of the English language, when I hear someone refer to somebody else as "best friend", there is a different personal relationship between the two than a person and "everybody".

As far as how would I react ... it would depend on the attitude of divorce being spoken of. If the divorce was done as "so what, it's normal, I got a right to do it ect. " then yes.

My former pastor said: "afflict the comfortable \ comfort the afflicted."

But the scripture you pointed out never specifies that a personal relationship must exist.

 

[twin.spin]

Except I read the scripture you pointed out as specific instructions to the prophet, not a general command.

Correct .. which is why I don't accept your basis of "my best friend" must have to include "everybody" when I was responding in context of person toward his "best friend".

Therefore as far as I'm concerned, you're making an issue out of this for other reasons other than the soul.

Please tell me when the last time you warned a person outside of the church of the sinfulness of their course of action that didn't involve homosexuality.

@ 5 minutes ago of this post when a RCC told me (in a different Christian forum Web site)about praying to Mary and the Saints. I told her that was worship and should not be done.

But the scripture you pointed out never specifies that a personal relationship must exist.

Nor does the scripture never specifies that a personal relationship must be spelled out for something to be applicable either.

As preacherswife said ... Sin is never normal, and for you to call homosexuality as "normal" is implying something that what the supporters and advocates are pushing their agenda on.

 

[Luther073082]

As preacherswife said ... Sin is never normal, and for you to call homosexuality as "normal" is implying something that what the supporters and advocates are pushing their agenda on.

Well it certainly fits every definition I've ever heard of. Normality doesn't make sin acceptable. But since only one person in human history was not a sinner, it is quite frankly as normal as death.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Well it certainly fits every definition I've ever heard of. Normality doesn't make sin acceptable. But since only one person in human history was not a sinner, it is quite frankly as normal as death.

Death is not normal either.

I think you need to talk to your pastor about calling sin and death normal and have him explain to you why that's no good.

 

[Doctor Strangelove]

Exactly so!!

Anything you say at all that doesn't accept his sexuality will be conceived (by him) as hatred no matter how kindly you say it.

I wish I had some good advice to give to you. I have a lot of gay friends and they have already heard the hammer of the law...so I know I don't have to push it into their faces.

I guess how to balance the Gospel with the hammer of the Law is always an issue. I do think conservatives are tempted to use the hammer too much, as if the purpose of the church is to use the hammer to forge morally reformed pagans. Then on the other extreme, the liberals throw out the Gospel all together and replace it with a counterfeit that stands in for grace.

 

[Studeclunker]

You keep on saying things like that Strange Doc, and you will be accused of being a Lutheran in Anglican clothing!