Must we endure in the faith by continuously believing and repenting?

[Invalidusername]

How do you know this?

Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it crystal clear unfortunately.

Also other passages where the Bible condemns other believers of losing their salvation. Those passages give absolutely no hope. "Believed in vain" and "Fell from grace" and etc. Paul did not say, "You have fallen from grace.... Unless you repent and then you can get it back!" No, they had fallen from grace and it was permanent.

Also if you read Revelations 2 and 3 with the 7 churches, you will see God addressing 3 groups of people. People who are faithful and WILL go to heaven, people who are being unfaithful and are about to undergo God's chastisement and they are on the brink of apostasy, and the people who have zero hope(aka apostates).

 

[Invalidusername]

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-24‬

This passage is referring to Jews being severed from God's plan and hope for the world and the Gentiles being grafted in. He is warning the Gentiles to continue in the faith lest God severs them from the vine and grafts the Jews back in.

 

[BCsenior]

I do know that people cannot fall back and forth into saved and unsaved state. Either they get saved and retain it to the end or they get saved and lose it irrevocably.

Also other passages where the Bible condemns other believers of losing their salvation. Those passages give absolutely no hope. "Believed in vain" and "Fell from grace"

Okay, good, but IMO, those above can return!
They haven't died yet.
This is what repentance is all about.
This is what Revelation 2 and 3 are all about.
Until you die, you can seriously repent. IMO.
Maybe not 100% of all people, but most.
Maybe 2 classes of people?
The unpardonable sin people are in their own class.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This passage is referring to Jews being severed from God's plan and hope for the world and the Gentiles being grafted in. He is warning the Gentiles to continue in the faith lest God severs them from the vine and grafts the Jews back in.

He’s warning some Gentiles not all of them. He does not say if you do not continue to believe all Gentiles will be cut off. The Jews will be grafted back in once the full number of Gentiles have repented. This warning is for everyone. Not even all Jews are severed from the vine. John 15 Jesus is speaking to His 11 faithful apostles who were Jews and were not severed from the vine. Also Paul who wrote Romans is also a Jew. Romans 11 shows that people can be cut off from the vine and grafted back in if they repent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Sorry I'll make it clearer. 'One set of sinners believers, one set not (believers).'

Thanks.

 

[Invalidusername]

He’s warning some Gentiles not all of them. He does not say if you do not continue to believe all Gentiles will be cut off. The Jews will be grafted back in once the full number of Gentiles have repented. This warning is for everyone. Not even all Jews are severed from the vine. John 15 Jesus is speaking to His 11 faithful apostles who were Jews and were not severed from the vine. Also Paul who wrote Romans is also a Jew. Romans 11 shows that people can be cut off from the vine and grafted back in if they repent.

Then how do you reconcile that with Hebrews 6 then?

Okay, good, but IMO, those above can return!
They haven't died yet.
This is what repentance is all about.
This is what Revelation 2 and 3 are all about.
Until you die, you can seriously repent. IMO.
Maybe not 100% of all people, but most.
Maybe 2 classes of people?
The unpardonable sin people are in their own class.

I believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are describing the unpardonable sin. Since Jesus says there is only ONE unforgivable sin and then Hebrews is describing an unforgivable apostasy.

But then again taking the mark of the beast will also be an unforgivable sin.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it crystal clear unfortunately.

Also other passages where the Bible condemns other believers of losing their salvation.

Please share these passages.

Those passages give absolutely no hope. "Believed in vain" and "Fell from grace" and etc.

Oh, those kind of passages. Well, in the Greek the words "in vain" in 1 Cor 15:2 means "without reason". That would mean believing without a goal or purpose.

Paul did not say, "You have fallen from grace.... Unless you repent and then you can get it back!" No, they had fallen from grace and it was permanent.

Where does ANY verse say anything about falling from grace is "permanent"??

I think your imagination is running kinda wild.

To "fall from grace" is a description of being out of fellowship, where the believer doesn't receive blessings from God, but His painful discipline (Heb 12:11).

Notice that I always provide verses that back up my statements? You should try it.

Also if you read Revelations 2 and 3 with the 7 churches, you will see God addressing 3 groups of people. People who are faithful and WILL go to heaven, people who are being unfaithful and are about to undergo God's chastisement and they are on the brink of apostasy, and the people who have zero hope(aka apostates).

Uh, there are NO letters to any of the churches where they have "no hope". In fact, to the 5 churches where Jesus has issues with, He gave all of them instructions for overcoming.

 

[BCsenior]

But then again taking the mark of the beast will also be an unforgivable sin.

Yes, perhaps it's the most obvious one!

Warning, bro', don't get side-tracked!

And don't forget these ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

 

[Invalidusername]

Please share these passages.


Oh, those kind of passages. Well, in the Greek the words "in vain" in 1 Cor 15:2 means "without reason". That would mean believing without a goal or purpose.


Where does ANY verse say anything about falling from grace is "permanent"??

I think your imagination is running kinda wild.

To "fall from grace" is a description of being out of fellowship, where the believer doesn't receive blessings from God, but His painful discipline (Heb 12:11).

Notice that I always provide verses that back up my statements? You should try it.


Uh, there are NO letters to any of the churches where they have "no hope". In fact, to the 5 churches where Jesus has issues with, He gave all of them instructions for overcoming.

There are specific groups of people in those churches that had no hope.

The problem with your doctrine is that you seem to think that "broad is the way to eternal life" as in anyone who believes that Jesus is who He is will go to heaven.

Believing that someone who has sinned to the point of no repentance is going to heaven is laughable.

 

[BCsenior]

Believing that someone who has sinned to the point of no repentance is going to heaven is laughable.

I warned you not to waste your time.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then how do you reconcile that with Hebrews 6 then?



I believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are describing the unpardonable sin. Since Jesus says there is only ONE unforgivable sin and then Hebrews is describing an unforgivable apostasy.

But then again taking the mark of the beast will also be an unforgivable sin.

I think the author of Hebrews is saying for us as believers not to try to bring back to repentance those who have been enlightened and partaken of the Holy Spirit and fell away because they are already sealed with the Holy Spirit and there is no more evidence we can produce to persuade such a person. I don’t think he is saying that a person who falls away is incapable of repentance and being saved. I don’t know of anyone personally but I think there are people out there who have doubted or questioned their faith and repented.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I warned you not to waste your time.

Lol I can vouch for that

 

[Invalidusername]

I think the author of Hebrews is saying for us as believers not to try to bring back to repentance those who have been enlightened and partaken of the Holy Spirit and fell away because they are already sealed with the Holy Spirit and there is no more evidence we can produce to persuade such a person. I don’t think he is saying that a person who falls away is incapable of repentance and being saved. I don’t know of anyone personally but I think there are people out there who have doubted or questioned their faith and repented.

That does not make sense because the verse is saying that this individual has re-crucified Christ to himself afresh. This makes it sound like he has somehow nullified the sacrifice and now he is under God's wrath once again but only much more severe since he has profaned the holy covenant.

Renew to repentance is not talking about someone going out and renewing someone to repentance. The Bible makes it clear that WE ourselves can never make anyone repent but rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit. So this interpretation has so many holes in it and is unconvincing. Renewing to repentance is talking about the regeneration of the Holy Spirit aka the spiritual rebirth. This spiritual rebirth can only occur ONCE. Not two times, three times, five times, and etc.

 

[timothyu]

This spiritual rebirth can only occur ONCE. Not two times, three times, five times, and etc.

The realization of the difference between world of man and Kingdom is a one time affair. Some may fall back into the world of man as thr parable of the sower shows, but may also grow to understand the error of their ways and return to the Kingdom now realising through mistakes the merit of the Kingdom over the will of man. That is what mistakes are for, to grow in wisdom.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That does not make sense because the verse is saying that this individual has re-crucified Christ to himself afresh. This makes it sound like he has somehow nullified the sacrifice and now he is under God's wrath once again but only much more severe since he has profaned the holy covenant.

Renew to repentance is not talking about someone going out and renewing someone to repentance. The Bible makes it clear that WE ourselves can never make anyone repent but rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit. So this interpretation has so many holes in it and is unconvincing. Renewing to repentance is talking about the regeneration of the Holy Spirit aka the spiritual rebirth. This spiritual rebirth can only occur ONCE. Not two times, three times, five times, and etc.

I agree that we cannot make someone repent but we are called to be a light to others and to spread the gospel so that others may repent. Please understand that I used the words I think, not to imply this is undoubtedly the message the author was trying to convey. I was just throwing it out there as a possibility. Personally I don’t know of any Christian who has never needed to repent. I backslid a lot when I first became a Christian. Have you never needed to repent after you accepted Christ?

 

[Invalidusername]

I agree that we cannot make someone repent but we are called to be a light to others and to spread the gospel so that others may repent. Please understand that I used the words I think, not to imply this is undoubtedly the message the author was trying to convey. I was just throwing it out there as a possibility. Personally I don’t know of any Christian who has never needed to repent. I backslid a lot when I first became a Christian. Have you never needed to repent after you accepted Christ?

I became a Christian after an amazing enlightenment period where I was heavily convicted of my sins and then I repented of my sins and I regained a new sensitivity and tenderness towards sin. But then after a period of time I slowly backslid into the world and through bitterness and anger stopped going to church. I was more running away from other people than God but still Hebrews 10:25 warns of not abandoning the fellowship and it precedes the apostasy verses. Now I no longer am tender and I have a callous conscience and a callous heart now. I have intellectually repented but unfortunately I seem incapable of genuine remorse. My heart is no longer contrite. I cannot respond to sin with sensitivity anymore. I have hardened myself and destroyed the heart of flesh that God gave me.

So yes there seems to be a point of no return. I have done many very grievous things but I am unable to see my sins for the wickedness that they are... Expect intellectually.

 

[BCsenior]

The Bible makes it clear that WE ourselves can never make anyone repent but rather it is the work of the Holy Spirit ... Renewing to repentance is talking about the regeneration of the Holy Spirit aka the spiritual rebirth. This spiritual rebirth can only occur ONCE. Not two times, three times, five times, and etc.

IMO, any BAC can feel remorse over sin
without the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
If we fall into sin, it is obvious, isn't it?
We can figure this out intellectually.
Again, salvation is co-operative effort.

I posted this before reading #256.

You are NOT in a hopeless condition.
If you were, you wouldn't be here searching!
The Holy Spirit has NOT given up on you!

 

[FreeGrace2]

Invalidusername said: ↑
But then again taking the mark of the beast will also be an unforgivable sin.

Yes, perhaps it's the most obvious one!

What would lead anyone to think that any BAC will take the mark of the beast?

Since Jesus was clear about all to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish, that alone should remove any notion that any BAC would receive the mark.

What will happen to every BAC who isn't living according to God's commands and standards will be removed by God's discipline before the mark will be given.

Verses regarding God's discipline leading to physical death:
1 Cor 5:5 - hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

1 Cor 11:30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep (physical death).

1 John 5:16 - If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

Warning, bro', don't get side-tracked!

A good warning, but not because anyone can lose salvation.

And don't forget these ...
Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

And again... None of these verses say that salvation can be lost.

Further, if any of them did, or any other verses, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 is nothing more than a LIE.

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The CAUSE of having eternal life is Jesus Christ. He is the One who gives it.

The EFFECT of having eternal life is never perishing. He is the One who promises it.

I will believe what Jesus said. Not what man assumes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

There are specific groups of people in those churches that had no hope.

Other than a mere assumption, what in Scripture would give you that assumption?

The problem with your doctrine is that you seem to think that "broad is the way to eternal life" as in anyone who believes that Jesus is who He is will go to heaven.

Gee. How about that! That's exactly what the Bible says, and says so clearly.

Here are some verses that directly support what I believe:

Salvation:

Mark 16:16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

2 Thess 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Believing that someone who has sinned to the point of no repentance is going to heaven is laughable.

No, what's extremely sad and tragic is rejecting the very words of Jesus. He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

But you don't believe what Jesus said. Your opinions are in direct opposition to what Jesus said.

Why don't you understand that?

Where do you get the ridiculous notion that failure to repent means loss of eternal life, removal as a child of God, removal of the Holy Spirit, etc?

It is your theology that is unbiblical.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I warned you not to waste your time.

Right. No point in engaging with those who have the truth and can easily refute your unbiblical notions.