Muhammed's Wives

[Jane_the_Bane]

The interesting thing is that an Orientalist is not in essence anti-Islamic, because an Orientalist is simply someone interested in the 'Orient'; usually a scholar of Oriental studies

I suppose you are unfamiliar with Edward Said's Orientalism, then?

The term has more than just one meaning.
An Orientalist can be a person involved in the academic study of (Middle) Eastern cultures - OR a person who constructs a cultural "Other" by projecting certain traits and stereotypes upon "oriental" cultures, essentially establishing a hard dichotomy between "East" and "West" that's usually tweaked in favour of his own cultural sphere.

The Orientalist dialectic is closely tied to the colonial past, and can be found in all sorts of texts, not only academic studies.

(And yeah, (Middle) Eastern cultures are guilty of that as well: the corresponding phenomenon is called occidentalism, and is quite common throughout Asia.)

 

[hikersong]

Start a thread! I believe you've distracted from Islam enough

You might not have noticed, because it won't have happened to you, but posts, and particularly threads, that are directly critical of Christianity have a tendency to get reported, removed, edited etc. To be blunt, it is not possible to go into the depth, and remorseless criticism of Christianity that you carry on against Islam, in another thread, even if we wanted to. And why should it be possible. This is a Christian forum. But please bear that in mind if you could. It's not a level playing field for free and open discussion here, so we depend upon a certain graciousness towards us outsiders on the part of the Christians who post.

 

[Sister of Faith]

Zaynab bint Jahsh was forbidden to Muhammed by Arabic custom.

She was married to Muhammed's adopted son and therefore deemed his daughter. (She was also Muhammed's cousin)

He desired her.

The husband - Zayd ibn Harithah - objected to Muhammed's advances.

Muhammed went away, and came back with a 'special revelation' from his god. His god al-Lah had said that this time Muhammed could have her

Zayd ibn Harithah didn't want to argue with their god so he divorced Zaynab bint Jahsh and she then was married to Muhammed.

Muhammed seemed to get special revalations that allowed him to get what he wanted.

Strange?

The strange is how you look to the events and how you interpret them.!!

 

[dazed]

Er, Buddhists can read the Bible too. I've read the Kangyar.

To answer your question, IIRC, no.

Again, how does reading a Bible help me understand what Mohammad did?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

The strange is how you look to the events and how you interpret them.!!

Not really, no.

 

[dazed]

Zaynab bint Jahsh was forbidden to Muhammed by Arabic custom.

She was married to Muhammed's adopted son and therefore deemed his daughter. (She was also Muhammed's cousin)

He desired her.

The husband - Zayd ibn Harithah - objected to Muhammed's advances.

Muhammed went away, and came back with a 'special revelation' from his god. His god al-Lah had said that this time Muhammed could have her

Zayd ibn Harithah didn't want to argue with their god so he divorced Zaynab bint Jahsh and she then was married to Muhammed.

Muhammed seemed to get special revalations that allowed him to get what he wanted.

Strange?

Let's get back to the topic.

I found it be a bit strange that Mohmmad seemed to get special revalations that allowed him to get what he wanted for things he had control. Yet, no special revelation on things that he had no control.

Allah cared enough about Mommand's sexual desire to give special revelations on marrying Zainab and a kintergarten girl. Yet, Allah didn't care enough to answer his prayers to have a surviving male heir. You would think that after food and sex, a male heir would be the third most important thing on the mind of a 7th century Arab man.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

Again, how does reading a Bible help me understand what Mohammad did?

Huh?

 

[Sister of Faith]

Not really, no.

I didn't say that what he is saying is true!!!
It is false and he knows that, and he will fall anyway.
Allahuma Salli wa Sallim ala Habibi Mohammed.

 

[dazed]

Huh?

Ever read your own posts? You told me to read my Bible, about Lot etc. So, how does that help me in understanding Mohammad, peace be upon him?

 

[dazed]

What a load of RUBBISH!

1. If God / Muhammad wanted to change the 'corrupt' tradition of divorced women no being allowed to marry God / Muhammad could have delivered a verse stating the new law?
2. If Muhammad had wanted to set an example he could have married any divorcee and avoided to obvious embarrassing questions of marrying his son's wife?
3. If it was all as you said why, after the event, did God have to come up with verses stating that it was He who made Muhammad marry her and come up with another verse stating that the rule of only 4 wives doesn't apply to him?
4. Zaynab and Zayd were happily married until Muhammad came across her unveiled. They had no intention of inclination to divorce until Muhammad's eyes fell on her.

REDICULOUS

I think Zayd started the burka tradition. In order to avoid another revelation, he ordered his next wife to cover from head to toes. An improvement was made the next day by cutting a slit for her to see.

 

[Montalban]

She was desired by him, his 'son' protested. Al-lah obliged.

I don't know what the Islamic dispute here is as they're evidencing the exact same thing

 

[Montalban]

I suppose you are unfamiliar with Edward Said's Orientalism, then?

I am aware of it, but I have instead Defending the West: A Critique of Edward Said's Orientalism by Ibn Warraq

I accept the term has more than one meaning. That was why I posted what I did. The Moslem site associated "Orientalism" with "criticism of Islam" and whilst some Orientalists are critics of Islam, not all are.

 

[razeontherock]

You Christians barely discuss your own religion

This sub-forum is not for that. Sometimes we do anyway. What you look at in this folder is not even 1% of CF.

mmm now find some other excuse to bash Prophet Muhammad?

You're really wanting to egg him on? Anyway, you claimed that impugning Muhammad's morality is ridiculous, and cited some passages I have no idea what they say. Can you break down how you might go about upholding his morality? I mean, the only real breakthrough we've had on the subject is that all agreed his actions were NOT moral.

No guilt trip here, it was less than a week ago so if you rip off the scab it's not a big deal.

 

[razeontherock]

Yea, Muhammed, what a guy! I'm sure there's a lot that can be said about a man that claims god told him to marry a 12 year old girl, lots.

6 years old

 

[CaliforniaSun]

You might not have noticed, because it won't have happened to you, but posts, and particularly threads, that are directly critical of Christianity have a tendency to get reported, removed, edited etc. To be blunt, it is not possible to go into the depth, and remorseless criticism of Christianity that you carry on against Islam, in another thread, even if we wanted to. And why should it be possible. This is a Christian forum. But please bear that in mind if you could. It's not a level playing field for free and open discussion here, so we depend upon a certain graciousness towards us outsiders on the part of the Christians who post.

There used to be an apologetics forum on CF some years ago, but it was shut down unfortunately. So now what you have is conversations in which certain parties are unable to objectively discuss religion without being considered rude or blasphemous.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Firstly, I cited my own references starting from Wiki - which itself gives a footnote, to two Islamic sites.

Secondly his source is not denying it happened at all

It says and I quote "So he married the divorcee of his "adopted" son to show that adoption does not really make the adopted child a real son of the adopting father and also to show that marriage is lawful for divorcees."

I have NO IDEA what your point is. But it seems to be like him, simply arguing against me because I'm saying it.

If he says it, then you accept it. But if I say the very same thing you object to it and ask for sources.[/quote]
What wiki site? I have not seen any.

I do not deny that Muhamamd (pbuh) married Zaynab.

I was asking for evidence for the following which you wrote:

i) Zaynab bint Jahsh was forbidden to Muhammed by Arabic custom.

ii) She was married to Muhammed's adopted son and therefore deemed his daughter. (She was also Muhammed's cousin)

iii) He desired her.

iv) The husband - Zayd ibn Harithah - objected to Muhammed's advances.

v) Muhammed seemed to get special revalations that allowed him to get what he wanted.

 

[Arthra]

Zaynab bint Jahsh was forbidden to Muhammed by Arabic custom.

She was married to Muhammed's adopted son and therefore deemed his daughter. (She was also Muhammed's cousin)

He desired her.

The husband - Zayd ibn Harithah - objected to Muhammed's advances.

Muhammed went away, and came back with a 'special revelation' from his god. His god al-Lah had said that this time Muhammed could have her

Zayd ibn Harithah didn't want to argue with their god so he divorced Zaynab bint Jahsh and she then was married to Muhammed.

Muhammed seemed to get special revalations that allowed him to get what he wanted.

Strange?

The story as I understand it:

Originally Zayd ibn Harithah was purchased by Khadijih and gifted as a slave to Muhammad. Muhammad became fond of Zaid and decided to grant him his freedom.. Members of Zaid's family later came to Mecca and Muhammad gave Zaid a choice... He could return home to his native tribe and family or he could stay with Him as His adopted son. Zaid chose to remain with Muhammad. This was unheard of at the time that a slave would be freed and then adopted as a son. In pre Islamic times adopted sons had the same rights as a natural son, however in Islam adoptive sons do not have the same rights as natural sons..

After the Hijra migration to Medina and the establishment of the Muslim community there... Muhammad suggested that Zaid marry Zaynab bint Jahsh...Zaynab bint Jahsh was also a cousin of Muhammad. One of the reasons for this suggestion was to equalize the classes..as Zaid was a former slave and Zaynab was of proud aristicratic lineage.

Anyway the marriage between Zaid and Zaynab was not going well and Zaid requested of Muhammad a divorce three times.. eventually the divorce was recognized and per revealed Sura Al-Ahzab 33:37

We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled.

Zaynab would have little status anyway as divorced by Zaid so it was also a way she could retain a high status in the community to be married to Prophet Muhammad.

 

[Montalban]

What evidence is there that the marriage was not going well? It is MY understanding that Zayd ibn Harithah initially protested Muhammed's attempts at taking his wife

 

[Montalban]

This sub-forum is not for that. Sometimes we do anyway. What you look at in this folder is not even 1% of CF.

Absolutely. If anyone were here for any time they'd find you and I battling it out all the time on General Theology.

Christians are not afraid of discussing their faith

 

[Arthra]

Bukhari Vol. Nine

Narrated Anas:
Zaid bin Haritha came to the Prophet complaining about his wife. The Prophet
kept on saying (to him), "Be afraid of Allah and keep your wife." Aisha said, "If
Allah's Apostle were to conceal anything (of the Quran he would have concealed
this Verse." Zainab used to boast before the wives of the Prophet and used to say,
"You were given in marriage by your families, while I was married (to the Prophet)
by Allah from over seven Heavens." And Thabit recited, "The Verse: -- 'But (O
Muhammad) you did hide in your heart that which Allah was about to make
manifest, you did fear the people,' (33.37) was revealed in connection with Zainab
and Zaid bin Haritha."

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 517:


So this is pretty much known as in the following:

Zayd asked the prophet’s permission to divorce Zaynab more than once, and although he was counseled to hold on to his wife and fear Allah, in the end the divorce took place.

Zayd ibn Harithah « The Yoruba Muslim Girl's Blog

She lived with Zaid for about a year, then there took place between them what (often) takes place between a man and his wife (i.e. disagreement) and so Zaid complained of her to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), due to their relationship to him, for he was his (former) slave and his foster son, while Zainab was his paternal aunt’s daughter. And it seems that Zaid suggested divorcing her, so Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) ordered to hold on to her and be patient with her,

The Prophet’s Marriage to Zainab after Zaid