Muhammed or Jesus?

[Fire]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Definition - Theos:[/font]

1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities[/font]
2. [font=Arial, Helvetica]the Godhead, trinity[/font]
   1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]God the Father, the first person in the trinity[/font]
   2. [font=Arial, Helvetica]Christ, the second person of the trinity[/font]
   3. [font=Arial, Helvetica]Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity[/font]
3. [font=Arial, Helvetica]spoken of the only and true God[/font]
   
   
   
   
   1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]refers to the things of God[/font]
   2. [font=Arial, Helvetica]his counsels, interests, things due to him[/font]
4. [font=Arial, Helvetica]whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way[/font]
   
   
   
   
   1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]God's representative or viceregent[/font]
      1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]of magistrates and judges[/font]

Defintion - Elohim:

1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods


2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God

The trinitarian God is absent from the Hebrew definition.

 

[NOTW]

Defintion - Elohim:

1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods


2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God
d) the (true) God
e) God

The trinitarian God is absent from the Hebrew definition.

And you won't find it in the New Testament either, so what's your point?

You won't find the word "trinity" in the Bible, but the Bible patently speaks about the trinity.
Especially in Isaiah 6:2-3
2 Angels were standing above him. Each had six wings: With two they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew.
3 They called to each other and said, "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of Armies! The whole earth is filled with his glory."

Why do you think it's Holy three times? Why wasn't it two or four?

 

[MO^MEN]

Muhammed or Jesus?.

Rather, mohammad and Jesus (PBUT).

We think both of them brought the same message
The think is we are not attacking Jesus we respect him and we consider him one of the greatest prophets.

 

[peaceful soul]

Rather, mohammad and Jesus (PBUT).

We think both of them brought the same message
The think is we are not attacking Jesus we respect him and we consider him one of the greatest prophets.

Your account is from the Qu'ran and ours is from the Bible. There is a huge difference in the two accounts. The Bible is the book that actually gives Him His full reverence. You can dispute that becuase you do not believe in it, but if you were to put aside that and just read it at face value, you could not help but agree. Jesus in the Bible shows true spirituality to us. Since we live in His presence each day, it is impossible for you to discredit what we have. All you have is a book with words in it proclaiming something that you have taken faith in. We have actually taken God at His word and have the proof of Jesus in our hearts, minds, and souls. We have the Spirit of Christ doing the changing in our lives as we are growing spiritually by His leading. Until you can come to see the difference, you can only hope that our relationship with Christ is not what the Biblical scriptures bear.

 

[MO^MEN]

Your account is from the Qu'ran and ours is from the Bible. There is a huge difference in the two accounts.

You are right, there is a huge difference in the two accounts.

God sent Jesus (PBUH) as prophet and you worship him as God.
And
God sent Mohammad (PBUH) as prophet and we follow him and worship God without partner.

 

[peaceful soul]

You are right, there is a huge difference in the two accounts.

God sent Jesus (PBUH) as prophet and you worship him as God.
And
God sent Mohammad (PBUH) as prophet and we follow him and worship God without partner.

You are letting your Qu'ran prevent you from understanding what the Biblical account is. That is what I specifically said that you need not to do in order to get to the understanding of the Bible. With your inability to research unbiasly (at least with the intent of finding facts/truth) you hinder yourself.

I can tell you that you know very little about Christ, because you do not walk the walk. You just talk the talk. Your version is theory compared to my reality of actually practicing the scriptures to find out if Jesus is who He claimed to be per Bible. So, far, I can authenticate that His claims are true. So, what can you say about it other than read a book and theorize and pray every night that what I see in my personal life is not the true account of Christ. I hope it sinks in what I was saying earlier. You have no real proof that I am wrong in what I know from the Bible on who Christ is; so, it would be to your advantage not to be so bold in proclaiming your Qu'ranic account until you walk on the other side and find out for yourself.

 

[Fire]

God sent Jesus (PBUH) as prophet

Can you please tell me where it says this in the Qu'ran?

 

[MO^MEN]

Can you please tell me where it says this in the Qu'ran?

a lot of verses:



[61:6]
And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery!"



[4:171] O People of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One God: glory be to Him: (far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.



[2:87]
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers; We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a Messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride? Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!



[2:253]
Those Messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: to one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus, the son of Mary, We gave Clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after Clear (Signs) had come to them but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah fulfilleth His plan.



Want more???

 

[Bevlina]

No thank you Mo^Mem.

 

[Fire]

[61:6]
And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery!"

Thank you.

[4:171]Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, and His Word...

Sura 4:171 calls Jesus a Messenger, not a prophet.

YHWH is the Father, who is also called Allah.

I understand that Muslims usually recognise Jesus as a prophet.
I think that a prophet hears the Word of YHWH
I think that Jesus was the Word.

Do you think that there is agreement between my beliefs and Sura 4:171?

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there [am] I: and now YHWH GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isaiah 48:16

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (theos), and the Word was God (theos).
John 1:1

(Theos is a general name for divine or godlike beings.)

 

[MO^MEN]

Thank you.
Do you think that there is agreement between my beliefs and Sura 4:171?

There is no agreement at all

The verse said that Jesus was prophet (messenger)
And you think he is Son of God YHWH

 

[Fire]

MO^MEN,

So, for Muslims, a messenger and a prophet are the same thing?

 

[Link_Blue]

MO^MEN,

So, for Muslims, a messenger and a prophet are the same thing?

not exactly, but every Human Messenger is a Prophet, but not every Prophet is a Messenger

 

[S Walch]

So, a messenger is one that proclaims God's message, and a prophet is one that proclaims the future?

 

[The thinker]

I think Jesus sonds like a generally nicer guy than Muhammed

Even from a non-Christian perspective Jesus does seem to be the more righteous one of the two. One other thing, somebody said before that Moses said the same things as Muhammed(about the killing etc.) but that was a completly different time and was designed to suite tribes and the less civilized people of anchent times.

I also couldn't help noticing that no Muslims have really said anything yet to defend Muhammed's less than kind hearted instructions e.g. the ones about flogging sinners and killing non-believers. I would be interested to see what a Muslim thinks about this, the instructions sound more satanic than Godly.

 

[muslimah.]

I did not read all the post, but Iam wondering how can you be sure that Jesus PBUH did say those things , when he did not leave any written bible or sayings of his own???
and what about him saying that he came not with peace but with fire and sowrd ? and to make family members enemies to one another ?

 

[The thinker]

I know he said those things because:

1)It makes sense

2)People wrote the bible by Gods influence, he wouldn't lie.

what about him saying that he came not with peace but with fire and sowrd ? and to make family members enemies to one another ?

when did he say that? I don't know of any accounts of Jesus turning any "family members enemies to one another " and I certainly know that Jesus never killed anyone or started any wars.

 

[S Walch]

Matthew 10:

34 "Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword.
35 I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!
37 If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine.
38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine.
39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give it up for me, you will find it.

Dunno bout most people - but in many many households - when someone bcomes a christian and they tell their family/the family finds out - they put them selves at great risk.

Some people get dissowned by their parents/siblings/friends - some people's parents/siblings/friends try to kill them.

It is not an all 'lovey-dovey' thing where the parents/siblings/friends are tolerant of their daughters/sons/brothers/sisters/friends beliefs. People are put at risk for just becoming a Christian.

As soon as we become A christian - Satan becomes our enemy, and all those that belong to satan.

Before Jesus becomes our master - whom do we serve?


If we're not on the Lords side - who's side are we on?

 

[muslimah.]

I know he said those things because:

1)It makes sense

2)People wrote the bible by Gods influence, he wouldn't lie.




when did he say that? I don't know of any accounts of Jesus turning any "family members enemies to one another " and I certainly know that Jesus never killed anyone or started any wars.

why woul God influence tens of people to write the Bible? and why did Luke say he was the author of his bible as in 1: 1-4 ?

As for the sword and fire please read Luke 12 : 49-53 plus Matthew 10: 34

Jesus never killed anyone because God did not order him to wage war against the infidles like other prophets in the Old Testemant

 

[The thinker]

why would God influence tens of people to write the Bible? and why did Luke say he was the author of his bible as in 1: 1-4 ?

I don't know why he would influence tens of people to write the bible, it was probably because different people are good at and know about different things. For example it would be better to get one of the disciples to write about things Jesus did because they were there. Also much of the bible is peoples accounts of when they met Jesus so who better to talk of what happened than the person himself. Luke doesn't say he was the author of the Bible he says that he is writing a "report of the things that have happened among us" by this he is simply talking about his book out of the many books in the bible.

34 "Don't imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! No, I came to bring a sword.
35 I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

This isn't literal, Jesus didn't actually bring the "sword" as in war. It means that he is serious and that he shouldn't be underestimated because of his peaceful appearance. He has the power to use the sword but the fact is that he doesn't. It also means that Jesus is here to change the face of the earth but not in a physical way, in a spiritual way using the sword of Gods word rather than in a subtle way.

As for luke12 it has the same meaning "I came to set the earth on fire" doesn't mean he will cause destruction and chaos. This means in a spiritual way, he will light a fire in every ones heart for him. This is why he says "how I wish it were all ready kindled". Why would Jesus, knowing about all the things he has done want to burn the earth? If he had wanted to then he would have done it.

Now for the part about division, this means that Jesus will cause division between believers and non-believers but he doesn't do this himself, other Christians do it out of their own choice because the love of Jesus and God is infinitely greater than anything your family can offer. Also if he wanted to divide people he would teach about how to go about this and what you should do in certain situations regarding division but he doesn't, he teaches of unity.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

-Rich (wwc)