Mueller Files First Charges

TLK Valentine · Oct 30, 2017

FreeinChrist said:
If Trump pardons Manafort, that will be a big step toward impeachment.

If -- aw, heck, WHEN -- Donald pardons Manafort, his loyalists will rationalize and excuse it away... political witch hunt, #FakeNews, "What about Hillary! DO SOMETHING!" ad nauseam...

camille70 · Oct 30, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
If -- aw, heck, WHEN -- Donald pardons Manafort, his loyalists will rationalize and excuse it away... political witch hunt, #FakeNews, "What about Hillary! DO SOMETHING!" ad nauseam...

This could take a long time to go to trial. If he resigns or is impeached first, he can't do anything.

withwonderingawe · Oct 30, 2017

camille70 said:
According to #14 on the download of charges I posted, the Trump campaign knew Russia had emails of Hillary since April 2016.

Are these the wikleak emails of Pedesta or the ones she wiped off her own computer?

withwonderingawe · Oct 30, 2017

AllButNone said:
And in other Mueller news, possibly a bigger story than Manafort, the collusion narrative is getting a bit of a bump with regard to George Papadopoulos.

https://www.justice.gov/file/1007346/download
https://www.justice.gov/file/1007341/download

"The government agrees to bring to the Court's attention...on the condition that your client continues to respond and provide information."

I read through up to page 9 of the indictment and it appears Papadopoulos and these Russians (we don't really know if Putin really knew anything about it) were trying to set up this meeting but Trump did not fall for it.

"b. After several weeks of further communications regarding a potential "off the record" meeting with Russian officials, on or about August 15, 2016, the Campaign Supervisor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS that "I would encourage you" and another foreign policy advisor to the Campaign to "make the trip{], if it is feasible."

c. The trip proposed by defendant PAPADOPOULOS did not take place."

One of the talking heads on Fox said that none of the Emails that went back and forth between Papaopoulos were not illegal but he lied about the timing of his meetings with the Russians and that is his down fall. Never never lie!

withwonderingawe · Oct 30, 2017

This whole thing got started because of a phony dossier which the FBI used to wire tap Manafort.

From The Federalist;

Obama’s Campaign Paid $972,000 To Law Firm That Secretly Paid Fusion GPS In 2016
Since April of 2016, Obama's campaign organization has paid nearly a million dollars to the law firm that funneled money to Fusion GPS to compile a dossier of unverified allegations against Donald Trump.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/29/obamas-campaign-gave-972000-law-firm-funneled-money-fusion-gps/

Mmmmm

TLK Valentine · Oct 30, 2017

camille70 said:
This could take a long time to go to trial. If he resigns or is impeached first, he can't do anything.

Manafort has to know that he won't last a week in prison, especially if Mueller finds a way to add some state charges... remember, he was talking to the New York AG...

...and Manafort wouldn't last an hour at Sing Sing.

If Manafort squeals, then things will get rolling pretty quickly.

TLK Valentine · Oct 30, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
This whole thing got started because of a phony dossier which the FBI used to wire tap Manafort.

From The Federalist;

Obama’s Campaign Paid $972,000 To Law Firm That Secretly Paid Fusion GPS In 2016
Since April of 2016, Obama's campaign organization has paid nearly a million dollars to the law firm that funneled money to Fusion GPS to compile a dossier of unverified allegations against Donald Trump.

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/29/obamas-campaign-gave-972000-law-firm-funneled-money-fusion-gps/

Mmmmm

The federal judge didn't think the dossier was phony... or is he in on the conspiracy?

withwonderingawe · Oct 30, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
Manafort has to know that he won't last a week in prison, especially if Mueller finds a way to add some state charges... remember, he was talking to the New York AG...

...and Manafort wouldn't last an hour at Sing Sing.

If Manafort squeals, then things will get rolling pretty quickly.

squeals about what?

TLK Valentine · Oct 30, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
squeals about what?

Absolutely anything he knows that might be of use to Mueller in order to save his own hide.

camille70 · Oct 30, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
Are these the wikleak emails of Pedesta or the ones she wiped off her own computer?

I'm not sure.

MoonlessNight · Oct 30, 2017

FreeinChrist said:
If Trump pardons Manafort, that will be a big step toward impeachment. The case and trial of Manafort will take a few years though. He can't pardon until Manafort is actually convicted.

If we keep getting the same "big steps" towards impeachment that people have been claiming that we've been having, President Trump might even be impeached by 2050.

AllButNone · Oct 30, 2017

withwonderingawe said:
c. The trip proposed by defendant PAPADOPOULOS did not take place."

That's not really the significance of the Papadopoulos documents. This is what I'm taking from it:

(a) Papadopoulos was working/communicating with actor(s) he knew were trying to subvert the election (he had been made aware of Clinton email, felt it necessary to lie about his contacts)

(b) Papadopoulos had discussions with high level campaign officials after the point he became aware of such email

(c) Mueller has additional information on this topic he has not yet revealed, and Papadopoulos is now cooperating with Mueller

I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. None of this implies Trump colluded with Russia. What it seems designed to do is put pressure on unnamed campaign officials. The question is, "how much information did Papadopoulus pass onto them".

I'm not going to say it's a 100% thing, but the wording and timing of this suggests to me that Mueller either strongly suspects or is fully aware that Papadopoulus passed at least some information to them with regard to Clinton email. If true, and again I don't guarantee it is, this in turn raises many more questions about the Trump campaign, some of Trump's denials, and other events like Trump Jr's meeting.

The story isn't over yet. The next act could be a lot more interesting. There are still many unknowns.

mark kennedy · Oct 30, 2017

The charges

Manafort and Gates were charged with "conspiracy against the United States," "conspiracy to launder money" and other offenses. The two were expected in court in Washington by the afternoon.

The Justice Department indictment on Manafort and Gates contains 12 counts: "conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principal, false and misleading FARA statements, false statements, and seven counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts."

Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI. (Russia Tried To Infiltrate Trump Campaign, Mueller Documents Confirm, NPR)

According to the indictment:

MANIFORT and GATES concealed from the United States their work as agents of, and milions of dollars in payments from, Ukraine and it’s political parties. (Manafort Gates Indictment Filed and Redacted. NPR)

This looks like, among other things, tax evasion. Trump isn't implicated in this but he hired on two foreign agents working for the pro-Russian Ukraine, what exactly do you think they were doing for that money? Had Bernie Sanders been elected and pulled something like this the right would be livid, where is the moral indignation now?

mark46 · Oct 30, 2017

FreeinChrist said:
If Trump pardons Manafort, that will be a big step toward impeachment. The case and trial of Manafort will take a few years though. He can't pardon until Manafort is actually convicted.

The case and trial will likely be over in the Spring. Of course, there will be appeals.

Trump can indeed pardon whoever he wants whenever he wants (POSSIBLY other than himself). Actually, I was surprised that Obama didn't pardon Hillary for any actions attendant to her actions during his administration.

As an example, Nixon was pardoned by Ford. There was no conviction of Nixon. There was no impeachment. I don't think that there were even any indictments.

Allandavid · Oct 30, 2017

MoonlessNight said:
If we keep getting the same "big steps" towards impeachment that people have been claiming that we've been having, President Trump might even be impeached by 2050.

You’re assuming a linear progression from here...??

mark46 · Oct 30, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
If -- aw, heck, WHEN -- Donald pardons Manafort, his loyalists will rationalize and excuse it away... political witch hunt, #FakeNews, "What about Hillary! DO SOMETHING!" ad nauseam...

???
This has been happen every day. Pardoning Manafort won't make any difference. I'm sure that there were several tweets since this news attacking Hillary, calling the information fake news, and saying that the Mueller information proves that Trump had nothing to do with Russia ever.

mark46 · Oct 30, 2017

Papadopoulos will make a fine witness. I'm sure that he has already provided all the emails between him, others in the campaign, in the transition and in the WH.

mark kennedy said:
The charges

Manafort and Gates were charged with "conspiracy against the United States," "conspiracy to launder money" and other offenses. The two were expected in court in Washington by the afternoon.

The Justice Department indictment on Manafort and Gates contains 12 counts: "conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principal, false and misleading FARA statements, false statements, and seven counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts."

Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to making false statements to the FBI. (Russia Tried To Infiltrate Trump Campaign, Mueller Documents Confirm, NPR)

According to the indictment:

MANIFORT and GATES concealed from the United States their work as agents of, and milions of dollars in payments from, Ukraine and it’s political parties. (Manafort Gates Indictment Filed and Redacted. NPR)

This looks like, among other things, tax evasion. Trump isn't implicated in this but he hired on two foreign agents working for the pro-Russian Ukraine, what exactly do you think they were doing for that money? Had Bernie Sanders been elected and pulled something like this the right would be livid, where is the moral indignation now?

mark46 · Oct 30, 2017

Why am I not surprised that so many posts are about Hillary and Democrats?

A member of Trump's campaign national security team has pled guilty. His campaign chairman has been indicted on a dozen charges.

This trial will likely take place in the Spring, just in time for the off-year campaign.

And this is just the start. Flynn is likely next to be indicted.

The team working on collision still has folks to interview about Jr's meeting with the Russians, specifically those on the plane who crafted the various responses by the WH, and those who worked on later communications.

mark46 · Oct 30, 2017

I would note that folks could be inducted in NY on state charges. Trump can't pardon any of those charges.

BTW, I agree that Trump is "safe", at least until after the November 2018 elections.

PeachyKeane · Oct 30, 2017

This is all ridiculous fake news. Manafort was awarded the medal of honor today, George Papadopolous won a truth-telling contest, and Robert Mueller isn't even a real person. He's just a Muppet!

Mueller Files First Charges

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