Moving vs Static

[James_Lai]

Hello.
Brain science tells us that we see moving objects much better than stationary. Our eyes jerk periodically involuntatily. Our breath and heartbeat creates minor vibrations for the eyes to be in motion. We pay attention and remember much better smth that’s moving.

For church services, preacher, choir members, worship team, they are the only moving people. During a Bible study or prayer meeting, everybody typically sits down. You sing along with the worship songs, it’s about the only thing you do actively. It’s a part of the service which many people enjoy most, as I was told numerous times, like my sister, she’s mainly drawn to church services because she can sing out loud in a big group. She also loves Karaoke btw.

In Orthodox church you stand up, sometimes walk up to kiss an icon or set a candle. Also in Catholic church and in Orthodox you come up to the priest to receive Eucharist bread/wine. So there’s some movement.

In some Charismatic church during service everybody can dance, clap, lift up their hands, say things out loud.

In a mosque, all people move as they pray - wash up first, then bow down and kneel down towards Ka’aba several times and in unison with all the men or women at the male and female sections. Kind of daily yoga.

Do you think church could be re-thought to incorporate more physical motion? Of course, in an organized, meaningful and spiritual way. Video projector screens with short videos is good like they sometimes do in churches, but it’s still overall pretty static.

Maybe then young people would be more interested? Otherwise, in their world of constant movement - Netflix, Youtube, TikTok, Instagram, Discord, Tinder etc everything is changing, flashing, moving, new characters, new worlds, swipe left swipe right, Like, Dislike etc etc constant movement 100mph Sports, dancing, hanging out with friends etc etc - doing smth

Church is so static, and everything static is perceived as less important by our nature

Do you think there is any merit to this suggestion, or is it breaking traditions and is not good?

 

[jesuslover811]

I have something to say about this as a young person (17 year old male) someone might value my opinion. Ive found most boys crave something like religion they just get it somewhere else modern pop culture is their religion it controls the food they eat the clothes they wear and everything about their lives. I think if we want more young men to come we have to show them the structure and discipline monks and saints have. I think the perception of Christians is people that just say " I accept Jesus as my lord a savior " and go to church once a year. I know personally people that don't like it for this reason instead they say if they would choose a religion it would be like Islam because how serious they are. Of course many Christians are very very serious and actually live lives for Christ most people just don't know. just my thoughts

edit: Just realized I really did not answer the actual topic of this thread. I think it is important to have both a traditionalist orthodox service but have a more modern pop culture youth group. There are alot of people who would be scared away by a orthodox church. There are alot of scared people who do not understand and are afraid to learn and a more modern approach to teaching is going to get them to stomach the truth easier. My pastor always moved alot growing up and it made me pay attention more.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I was raised up first as Episcopalian. Very little movement other than kneeling down and getting up.
When I was 17, I was introduced to the charismatic movement while in Pittsburg PA. I recall going to a conference where Derek Prince was speaking. Lots of movement in the charismatic meetings. I think movement is fine if not beneficial when appropriate. You would not want it when the pastor is preaching, or the teacher is teaching. During praise and worship I think almost anything is appropriate. During communion you would want calm reverence. So I think movement is good and even appropriate at certain times.

 

[James_Lai]

I have something to say about this as a young person (17 year old male) someone might value my opinion. Ive found most boys crave something like religion they just get it somewhere else modern pop culture is their religion it controls the food they eat the clothes they wear and everything about their lives. I think if we want more young men to come we have to show them the structure and discipline monks and saints have. I think the perception of Christians is people that just say " I accept Jesus as my lord a savior " and go to church once a year. I know personally people that don't like it for this reason instead they say if they would choose a religion it would be like Islam because how serious they are. Of course many Christians are very very serious and actually live lives for Christ most people just don't know. just my thoughts

edit: Just realized I really did not answer the actual topic of this thread. I think it is important to have both a traditionalist orthodox service but have a more modern pop culture youth group. There are alot of people who would be scared away by a orthodox church. There are alot of scared people who do not understand and are afraid to learn and a more modern approach to teaching is going to get them to stomach the truth easier. My pastor always moved alot growing up and it made me pay attention more.

So in a way you propose smth that involves activity as well. Also hierarchy and structure, discipline. The bottom line it’s also movement and not being static.

It made me think of Luke 7:1-10, where the Roman centurion, a mid-ranking military officer showed respect and faith in Jesus Christ by his actions recognizing His authority and power, and demonstrating humility and subordination (worship). Jesus commended him by saying in all of Israel He hadn’t seen such strong faith…

So discipline and activity vs slack and idleness are certainly what Jesus loves!

 

[Martinius]

Many Catholic churches have Masses geared toward youth...basically, teenagers. At those services, there is usually much more movement, swaying, clapping, holding hands, and other gestures to accompany the music. I kind of like the energy and enthusiasm I find there.

Many, many years ago, I visited a parish that had been literally taken over by youth. Here is what I wrote about it later:

"It’s hard to describe Holy Rosary, but first think of the early 70’s and then of the movie “Sister Act”. Imagine a big, old church, packed with people, two-thirds of them in their late teens or early twenties (college age), singing, swaying, holding hands, and a priest in colorful vestments. The place rocked! I have never since seen so many enthusiastic young people in a church."

That last part is true 50 years later. Of course, that didn't last, and it wasn't long before the parish reverted back to its old ways, with mostly old people, and very little energy. All those hundreds of young adults had to end up somewhere, likely at a non-Catholic denomination where they were more welcome and their enthusiasm was encouraged, rather than squashed.

I found similar styles of worship a few other times, mostly at Catholic chapels or youth (Newman) centers at colleges. One thing that crossed my mind about those is that these were young people away from home, going to church voluntarily, not because their parents dragged them there. It wasn't a requirement, but a desire. That makes a huge difference.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Also in Catholic church and in Orthodox you come up to the priest to receive Eucharist bread/wine. So there’s some movement.

In some Charismatic church during service everybody can dance, clap, lift up their hands, say things out loud.

Do you think church could be re-thought to incorporate more physical motion? Of course, in an organized, meaningful and spiritual way. Video projector screens with short videos is good like they sometimes do in churches, but it’s still overall pretty static.

Church is so static, and everything static is perceived as less important by our nature

In a Catholic service you are kneeling or sitting or standing, back and forth a few times. Not just sitting. Which is good because I can only sit for so long. Also singing, and some responsive prayer so it's not at all just listening to someone else talking. And then coming up for communion. And the sign of the cross when you come in and kneeling down before initially sitting down. And the same when leaving. So it's not static. It's not just watching and listening to someone else. There is motion.

The motions of Catholic worship have evolved over nearly 2000 years, and actually have picked up a lot from the patterns of Israelite worship. Same for Orthodox worship. And I think that is because our bodies are part of the worship. We are not some disembodied consumers of a religious service. A person is a body and a soul. We are bodily participants in praise and worship. Catholics aren't always prone to charismatic exuberance but neither are we static.

 

[James_Lai]

edit: Just realized I really did not answer the actual topic of this thread. I think it is important to have both a traditionalist orthodox service but have a more modern pop culture youth group. There are alot of people who would be scared away by a orthodox church. There are alot of scared people who do not understand and are afraid to learn and a more modern approach to teaching is going to get them to stomach the truth easier. My pastor always moved alot growing up and it made me pay attention more.

With my children, I avoid lecturing them or teaching in monotonous voice etc.

Always incorporating movement and smth new, fun and unusual. Action, movement and change is what makes kids pay attention.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Hello.
Brain science tells us that we see moving objects much better than stationary. Our eyes jerk periodically involuntatily. Our breath and heartbeat creates minor vibrations for the eyes to be in motion. We pay attention and remember much better smth that’s moving.

For church services, preacher, choir members, worship team, they are the only moving people. During a Bible study or prayer meeting, everybody typically sits down. You sing along with the worship songs, it’s about the only thing you do actively. It’s a part of the service which many people enjoy most, as I was told numerous times, like my sister, she’s mainly drawn to church services because she can sing out loud in a big group. She also loves Karaoke btw.

In Orthodox church you stand up, sometimes walk up to kiss an icon or set a candle. Also in Catholic church and in Orthodox you come up to the priest to receive Eucharist bread/wine. So there’s some movement.

In some Charismatic church during service everybody can dance, clap, lift up their hands, say things out loud.

In a mosque, all people move as they pray - wash up first, then bow down and kneel down towards Ka’aba several times and in unison with all the men or women at the male and female sections. Kind of daily yoga.

Do you think church could be re-thought to incorporate more physical motion? Of course, in an organized, meaningful and spiritual way. Video projector screens with short videos is good like they sometimes do in churches, but it’s still overall pretty static.

Maybe then young people would be more interested? Otherwise, in their world of constant movement - Netflix, Youtube, TikTok, Instagram, Discord, Tinder etc everything is changing, flashing, moving, new characters, new worlds, swipe left swipe right, Like, Dislike etc etc constant movement 100mph Sports, dancing, hanging out with friends etc etc - doing smth

Church is so static, and everything static is perceived as less important by our nature

Do you think there is any merit to this suggestion, or is it breaking traditions and is not good?

There are three fundamental aspects to the soul: mind, emotion and will. You will find that Christians tend to gravitate to one of these aspects. Some (not so common these days) enjoy the intellectual side, the research, Bible discussion, the Greek and Hebrew word studies and so on. They are often happy to listen to a preacher as they would a lecturer in university.

Others prefer the emotional side. They like the music and singing and theater of a lot of modern services. They are not as good at listening as the intellectually inclined.

Another group is inclined towards power. They are big on faith, positive confession, healing, prosperity and miracles.

Sometimes Christians get disillusioned or bored and seek out a different group that suits their personality better.

So who is right? The answer is simple: none of those groups. They all seek something that suits them. That is pleasing the soul. Christians are fundamentally spirit beings. The soul is the means of expressing the spirit. The soul should serve the spirit, not dominate it. It's a very big subject and not easy to cover in brief.

 

[James_Lai]

There are three fundamental aspects to the soul: mind, emotion and will. You will find that Christians tend to gravitate to one of these aspects. Some (not so common these days) enjoy the intellectual side, the research, Bible discussion, the Greek and Hebrew word studies and so on. They are often happy to listen to a preacher as they would a lecturer in university.

Others prefer the emotional side. They like the music and singing and theater of a lot of modern services. They are not as good at listening as the intellectually inclined.

Another group is inclined towards power. They are big on faith, positive confession, healing, prosperity and miracles.

Sometimes Christians get disillusioned or bored and seek out a different group that suits their personality better.

So who is right? The answer is simple: none of those groups. They all seek something that suits them. That is pleasing the soul. Christians are fundamentally spirit beings. The soul is the means of expressing the spirit. The soul should serve the spirit, not dominate it. It's a very big subject and not easy to cover in brief.

I understand this analysis. How is spirit being fed?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I understand this analysis. How is spirit being fed?

The spirit feeds on the living word. What I mean by that is revelation from the Holy Spirit. This is how faith arises. It is the Truth that sets us free. I've met people with theology degrees who are not even born again. They know the book of the Lord, but they do not know the Lord of the book.

Lord Jesus is the Word. He is the Bread of heaven. "Give us this day our daily bread" has nothing to do with marmalade and toast. Lord Jesus said that we needed to "eat His flesh". The Jews were disgusted because they did not understand.

If you have had revelation, you will know what I mean. I've read the Bible many times, especially the NT. Every now and again a particular verse or passage will resonate with me deep inside, deeper than mind. I still remember when I first saw "we shall be like Him". I'd read it before, but only with my mind. My inner man rejoiced. Deep down, every Christian longs to be like Jesus. And that is His promise to us, one day we will be like Him.

When you receive revelation, you need to take it onboard, so to speak. It needs to become part of you. There is not point putting food in your mouth if you do not swallow it! We can and should ask the Lord to make revelation a part of us. Then when the trial comes (and it most surely will), you are able to overcome by declaring the truth.

God is most willing to give revelation. All you have to do is ask. But remember that it comes with responsibility. You need to do the word that you receive, whatever that means in experience.