(Moved) speaking in tongues

talitha said:

If you look at the context, it's about corporate worship..... just sayin'.....

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Not really, part of the context advises those who speak in an unknown tongue to not speak so loud and speak to themselves and God, so beyond my own personal experience, the passage does also instruct personal application.

Tongues are a a sign TO unbelievers OF believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17)

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:..." I Cor 14:22

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Mark 16:17

tturt said:

Tongues are a a sign TO unbelievers OF believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17)

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:..." I Cor 14:22

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" Mark 16:17

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And what are they a sign of?

Read Isaiah 28.

They are a sign of the stubbornness and the faithlessness of those who do not believe. The gift of glossolalia was a sign of God's action in the Church, and those who rejected what God was doing were being shown to be like those in times past who refused to hear the word of the Lord.

Consider this portion, from which St. Paul pulls his quote in 1 Corinthians 14,

"Truly, with stammering lip and with alien tongue he will speak to this people to whom he has said, 'This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose'; yet they would not hear. Therefore the word of YHVH will be to them, 'Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little;' in order that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Therefore hear the word of YHVH, you scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem. Because you have said, 'We have made a covenant with death, and with She'ol we have an agreement; when the overwhelming scourge passes through it will not come to us; for we have made our lies our refuge, and in falsehood we have taken shelter'; therefore thus says Lord YHVH, See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation: 'One who trusts will not panic.' And I will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet; hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, and waters will overwhelm the shelter. Then your covenant with death will be annulled, and your agreement with She'ol will not stand; when the overwhelming scourge passes through you will be beaten down by it. As often as it passes, it will take you; for morning by morning it will pass through, by day and by night; and it will be sheer terror to understand the message. For the bed is too short to stretch oneself on it, and the covering too narrow to wrap oneself in it. For YHVH will rise up as on Mount Perazim, He will rage as in the valley of Gibeon to do His deed--strange is His deed!--and to work His work--alien is His work! Now therefore do not scoff, or your bonds will be made stronger; for I have heard a decree of destruction from the Lord YHVH of hosts upon the whole land." - Isaiah 28:11-22

-CryptoLutheran

posted: 1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

You're right by including v 27 because this means when there isn't an interpretation after the message in tongues is given at the most three times, then the message in tongues is to stop.

This is about tongues for church edification (I Cor 14:5)

tturt said:

this means when there isn't an interpretation after the message in tongues is given at the most three times, then the message in tongues is to stop.

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thanks for that - you have made this more clear to me!

Usually I don't include Isa 28 to support speaking in tongues but to me it does. Yes, I've studied it previously

tturt said:

posted: 1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

You're right by including v 27 because this means when there isn't an interpretation after the message in tongues is given at the most three times, then the message in tongues is to stop.

This is about tongues for church edification (I Cor 14:5)

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No, you're not looking at it right. Its not a situation where you need to speak in tongues for church edification because Paul said he rather speak in a language that everyone understands so that they can be edifited. Paul is saying if someone happens to be speaking in an unknown tongue, then there needs to be an interpreter for the church to be edified. Speaking on tongues is not for the purpose of the edification of the church because edification requires understanding so no interpreter, no edification.

So now I am going to ask, some believe that tongues is a special language between man and God that the holy spirit gives in order for you to be able to pray properly to God. If you believe this, can you or anyone else provide passages in the bible that supports that belief.

tturt said:

posted: 1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

You're right by including v 27 because this means when there isn't an interpretation after the message in tongues is given at the most three times, then the message in tongues is to stop.

This is about tongues for church edification (I Cor 14:5)

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Oh and where does the three times come from?

sahjimira said:

Wasn't sure where to post this. Do u think speaking in tongues isfor real? I know some people just seem to babble..but what do u think

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I don't think the tongues that ministries like the International House of Prayer and Bethel Church are known for are real. I think the tongues described in Acts was real but it served a unique purpose that isn't an issue in 2015. Tongues was meant to bridge cultural and linguistic gaps in the first century Roman Empire. Today, the gospel has already extended to all the nations with the bible being translated into nearly every language (with more work continuing to be done to reach more languages).

So the practice of actively trying to speak in tongues for personal edification? No I don't think there's anything legitimate about that, and is advocated based on a distorted interpretation of St. Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians 13.

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;" I Cor 14:4

Church edification is v 5

Three times as the maximum number of times for tongues for interpretation provides a "decent and in order" standard. Not how we all define it.

Yes, you can tell the different between tongues and tongues for interpretation.

tturt said:

"He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;" I Cor 14:4

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Spiritual gifts are for the edification of others, never for self.

1 Peter 4:10 "Each of you should use whatever gift you have received to serve others"

1 Corinthians 12:7 "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good."

In the verse you quote Paul is pointing out their error.

By the way that word 'unknown' only appears in the KJV. It is not in the original manuscripts. So it doesn't mean the language spoken was of unknown origin. All the tongues speaking in the new testament was in human foreign languages. There is no biblical evidence for it being a heavenly language or whatever. There is only one description of the gift of tongues and that is in Acts 2:5-12, where it goes into great detail to describe the gift.

I Cor 14 is mainly about tongues and includes "... forbid not to speak with tongues." The individual believer is part of the church. btw, the purposes for speaking in tongues are numerous - already posted a few of those Scriptures.

Since there's a diversity of tongues (I Cor 12:28), it means that languages that haven't been learned by the believer is spoken. But that is just one aspect of tongues.

"What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also" I Cor 14:15

tturt said:

Yes, you can tell the different between tongues and tongues for interpretation.

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In actual practice, they sound different.

tturt said:

I Cor 14 is mainly about tongues and includes "... forbid not to speak with tongues." The individual believer is part of the church. btw, the purposes for speaking in tongues are numerous - already posted a few of those Scriptures.
I Cor 14:15

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Scripture clearly says that spiritual gifts are for the benefit of others. How is uninterpreted tongues a benefit to others?

tturt said:

Since there's a diversity of tongues (I Cor 12:28), it means that languages that haven't been learned by the believer is spoken. But that is just one aspect of tongues.

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That's right. There are a large diversity of human languages which were never learned by the tongues speakers.

tturt said:

Yes, you can tell the different between tongues and tongues for interpretation.

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talitha said:

In actual practice, they sound different.

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That's correct. I've never done either, but I've known when one was meant for personal worship of Christ, and when that was falsely "interpreted" (I hate it when that happens).

Darth Bagel said:

I don't think the tongues that ministries like the International House of Prayer and Bethel Church are known for are real. I think the tongues described in Acts was real but it served a unique purpose that isn't an issue in 2015. Tongues was meant to bridge cultural and linguistic gaps in the first century Roman Empire. Today, the gospel has already extended to all the nations with the bible being translated into nearly every language (with more work continuing to be done to reach more languages).

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The general purpose of tongues, especially in the book of Acts, was not meant to bridge cultural and linguistic gaps in the first century Roman Empire, regardless of how popular this concept is.

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

Notice that the Jews understood what they were saying, and they were not preaching the Gospel as is commonly believed today. Peter later preaches the Gospel to them. But what they were questioning was the tongues. What meaneth (pardon my King James English) what we are hearing? Then Peter answered their question:



14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So the practice of actively trying to speak in tongues for personal edification? No I don't think there's anything legitimate about that, and is advocated based on a distorted interpretation of St. Paul's comments in 1 Corinthians 13.

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What is not legitimate about it? Notice in Corinthians Paul distinguishes between speaking in tongues when an interpreter is not needed, and speaking in tongues when an interpreter is needed. There is a clear distinction made more than once and explanation given for the purpose of each. But notice the purposes showed in Corinthians are not the same purpose that Peter puts forth in Acts.

There is glossalalia that was in pagan society from ancient prechristian times. There is such among cults that have a different gospel, with such also called the gift of tongues. All this is ecstatic speech, that which is not understood with meaning. What is there to distinguish what is thought to pass for really being tongues that is made possible from Yahweh God, from all these other things? What I see from scriptures speaking of this suggests to me that the real thing would be miraculous, not something others could say is not really another language being spoken.

FredVB said:

There is glossalalia that was in pagan society from ancient prechristian times. There is such among cults that have a different gospel, with such also called the gift of tongues. All this is ecstatic speech, that which is not understood with meaning. What is there to distinguish what is thought to pass for really being tongues that is made possible from Yahweh God, from all these other things? What I see from scriptures speaking of this suggests to me that the real thing would be miraculous, not something others could say is not really another language being spoken.

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I agree with most of what you stated. Tongues is indeed miraculous, if that is how you want to word it. It is miraculous because it is, "as the Spirit gives utterance." Where I would disagree is that all tongues are known earthly languages. I believe Paul makes the case for such a thing as a heavenly language. What that sounds like, its hard telling.

sahjimira said:

Wasn't sure where to post this. Do u think speaking in tongues isfor real? I know some people just seem to babble..but what do u think

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What people think is one thing.

What scripture says is the reality.

Scripture says is this.

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; KJV

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. KJV

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, KJV

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. KJV

1 Cor 14:2
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
KJV

1 Cor 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. KJV

1 Cor 14:18
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: KJV

Biblical tongues seems to have 2 types. The 1 Cor 12-14 tongues is a gift given to by the Holy Spirit and it is clear in that passage that not everyone receives the same gifts. However if we read acts the manifestation of tongues appears to be different. For example in acts tongues is given upon the onset of the baptism of the HS and appears to be indiscriminate in its outpouring rather than selective.

This is simply what is revealed about the nature of tongues in the bible. Since both Acts and 1 Cor accounts must be right then it would suggest two types of tongues, 1. the gift of tongues given to some by the HS and 2. the indiscriminate manifestation of tongues initiated from the baptism of the HS.

Is tongues still real? Biblical accounts of tongues of course are authentic but even the 1 Cor account shows us there was already abuse and abuse still continues today. But just because there is abuse doesn't mean it isn't authentic as the early church Paul was writing to reveals.

There is a passage at the end of 1 Cor 13 that show us that the gifts of the HS will pass away when we no longer need them. A common quoted verse says "when the perfect comes the imperfect will disappear". The suggestion of course is gifts of the HS fill in the gaps of our imperfections. But a day will come when the gifts no longer have value because we will no longer need them. When will this happen? Some say it has already happened citing "the perfect" is the completion of the canon or the establishment of the church. I would disagree with this and see "the perfect" as Christ and the passage talking about his return thus the gifts are still in full practise.

"The perfect" as Christ I see as the most natural and simplistic interpretation . To suggest its the completion of the canon or the establishment of the church I see as overly cryptic and irresponsible. Events like these are not mentioned in scripture as milestones to watch for. If this passage refers to such events I would expect other passages to agree with it and to further expand upon this (such as the event of the return of Christ). It feels like trying to reverse interpret scripture to make something fit. I continue to maintain that this passage refers to the return of Christ so all gifts are in full operation today.