[Moved from Philosophy&Ethics] Just wondering...

[..slang]

Hello everyone.

I ask of you that you read my post with an open mind. I may offend some people. Know now that this is not my intent. If you feel offended, please post, so I can explain what I mean by the things I'm going to be saying.

I've been looking for answers to a few questions I've been carrying with me for some time. I don't know if this is the correct section to ask them, if it isn't I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with this forum.

I'm not really sure where to start, but I want to ask questions about good and evil, and more questions about evil at that.

So here goes,
The old Hebrew Torah (the old testament) tells us god had a certain angel serving him. He was referred to as 'The challenger' or 'The adversary'. His name was: שָׂטָן, which translates to The Satan, or his aforementioned titles. He was Gods punisher angel. He was sent to Earth to test the faith of us humans*. Satan once was, just as God, his angels angels and his heaven still are, perfect. He did as he was instructed, and served the Lord perfectly.

[*]: Job 1, The book of job


But then, on a certain day long ago, he rebelled against the Lord. Why did he do this/how could this be?

I can answer the first question for you. It is this deed that dubbed him 'Lucifer' which translates to 'the bringer of light'.

He pitied us after we were thrown out of eden, and he decided to go against god to help us. He brought us, as his 'new' name implies, light. He stole from God the light and brought it down to earth, thereby ending our punishment. God was furious, and cast Satan down from the heavens.

I wonder, if the Lord tells us to forgive, if love and kinship are so important, why did he cast such a harsh penalty upon one who was loyal to him? One who, if you think about it, could be compared to Jesus Christ[**]. Offering himself in much the same way Christ will do ages later.

[**]: Christ died for our sins, Lucifer must have known that the Lord would punish him for ending our punishment (for our sins) before the Lord deemed it was enough.

So here it goes:

Why do we hate him so much? Why do we blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world? (He is the Lords punisher angel after all) Why did the Lord cast him from the heavens? Why did he offer himself for us?

I ask of you again, before you post a reply, to think about what I've written here.

 

[Lily_Among_Thorns]

Hello everyone.

I ask of you that you read my post with an open mind. I may offend some people. Know now that this is not my intent. If you feel offended, please post, so I can explain what I mean by the things I'm going to be saying.

I've been looking for answers to a few questions I've been carrying with me for some time. I don't know if this is the correct section to ask them, if it isn't I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with this forum.

I'm not really sure where to start, but I want to ask questions about good and evil, and more questions about evil at that.

So here goes,
The old Hebrew Torah (the old testament) tells us god had a certain angel serving him. He was referred to as 'The challenger' or 'The adversary'. His name was: שָׂטָן, which translates to The Satan, or his aforementioned titles. He was Gods punisher angel. He was sent to Earth to test the faith of us humans*. Satan once was, just as God, his angels angels and his heaven still are, perfect. He did as he was instructed, and served the Lord perfectly.

[*]: Job 1, The book of job


But then, on a certain day long ago, he rebelled against the Lord. Why did he do this/how could this be?

I can answer the first question for you. It is this deed that dubbed him 'Lucifer' which translates to 'the bringer of light'.

He pitied us after we were thrown out of eden, and he decided to go against god to help us. He brought us, as his 'new' name implies, light. He stole from God the light and brought it down to earth, thereby ending our punishment. God was furious, and cast Satan down from the heavens.

I wonder, if the Lord tells us to forgive, if love and kinship are so important, why did he cast such a harsh penalty upon one who was loyal to him? One who, if you think about it, could be compared to Jesus Christ[**]. Offering himself in much the same way Christ will do ages later.

[**]: Christ died for our sins, Lucifer must have known that the Lord would punish him for ending our punishment (for our sins) before the Lord deemed it was enough.

So here it goes:

Why do we hate him so much? Why do we blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world? (He is the Lords punisher angel after all) Why did the Lord cast him from the heavens? Why did he offer himself for us?

I ask of you again, before you post a reply, to think about what I've written here.

First of all, Lucifer is a mistranslation from the Hebrew. Where it is found Lucifer is actually speaking of the oppressive Babylonian king called "Daystar". Lucifer is a mistranslation of that name is not proper but apparently has stuck as the Babylonian king's name and has also, since then, by the context of that particular scripture, taken form of Satan's other name.

In Greek mythology, Lucifer is the angel that stole the light of prometheus against Zeus' wishes and gave the flame of enlightenment to mankind. So I understand where you get the thinking of your argument. However, none of it is true.

You should try thinking of Satan as being the adversary to what is good. God being the deliverer of good and Satan as being against that good.

You should really stick to the Church's teaching on all matter so that you don't get led astray into thinking what you see in scripture is actually the truth of the matter. Walk with a shepherd (church) instead of leading yourself on your way.

 

[ittarter]

You are conflating separate personas. The angelic figure in Job 1 is not the same as the character Satan from the New Testament. And Lucifer, from the book of Isaiah, is an allegory between the king of Babylon (if memory serves) and... dunno, maybe the Watcher myth from Genesis 6?

Anyway, they're all separate, different, and to say they're the same results in a host of nonsense that is a poor excuse for theology.

 

[JCFantasy23]

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[razeontherock]

You are conflating separate personas. The angelic figure in Job 1 is not the same as the character Satan from the New Testament.

What makes you say that?

 

[drich0150]

[*]: Job 1, The book of job
But then, on a certain day long ago, he rebelled against the Lord. Why did he do this/how could this be?

Why; we are told pride came before the Fall.

He challenged God for position and power.

I wonder, if the Lord tells us to forgive, if love and kinship are so important, why did he cast such a harsh penalty upon one who was loyal to him?

We are to forgive for all whom repent or for those who seek forgiveness from us. There is nothing that would indicate that Lucifer nor any of the fallen have done this.

[**]: Christ died for our sins, Lucifer must have known that the Lord would punish him for ending our punishment (for our sins) before the Lord deemed it was enough.

Satan is a member of Creation and not a "god" Himself. as such he nor any of the fallen were privy to the mind or plans of God.

Why do we hate him so much?

He represents all evil or the separation we experience from God.

Why do we blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world?

Because he brought sin into this world.

(He is the Lords punisher angel after all)

So is Michael but he manages to stay with in the expressed will of God.

Why did the Lord cast him from the heavens?

Because he exceeded God's Expressed will.

Why did he offer himself for us?

You are mistaken

I ask of you again, before you post a reply, to think about what I've written here.

I have and it concerns me of the possible reasons you might have for posting these questions.

 

[talitha]

What you say is not offensive, but I'm afraid you might be confused by the different answers from Christians. I know what I believe, and I'm surprised by the variety of responses people have given so far. I thought what I believe was pretty standard.

The old Hebrew Torah (the old testament) tells us god had a certain angel serving him. He was referred to as 'The challenger' or 'The adversary'. His name was: שָׂטָן, which translates to The Satan, or his aforementioned titles. He was Gods punisher angel. He was sent to Earth to test the faith of us humans*. Satan once was, just as God, his angels angels and his heaven still are, perfect. He did as he was instructed, and served the Lord perfectly.

[*]: Job 1, The book of job

You have some things turned around; it seems that you have been taught by Wiccans, Luciferians, or Satanists, I'm not sure which, and mixed it with what's found in the Torah. The fall of Lucifer happened before the creation of man. Lucifer was not a "punisher angel" - but today he does serve the function of testing humans. After his rebellion he was removed from the eternal pleasures at God's right hand, but like every other created being, he serves God whether he likes it or not.

Now, there is one thing that I believe that could be wrong - it's based on conclusions I've drawn and not expressly in Scripture - and that is that when Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he landed on this planet. He knew that God's plan was to put man here, so he set about laying traps for man, and he appeared in the garden in the form of a beautiful serpent. But God planned to redeem the planet through man, and God will win in the end, when the grand epic comes to a close.

But then, on a certain day long ago, he rebelled against the Lord. Why did he do this/how could this be?

It could be for several reasons - it could possibly be that this was all part of God's plan to begin with; after all, the Bible does refer to Jesus as the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Any artist knows that in order to show the beauty and triumph of light, there must be darkness, and perhaps that was God's design of the whole of history.

I can answer the first question for you. It is this deed that dubbed him 'Lucifer' which translates to 'the bringer of light'.

Strange. The actual word "Lucifer" is a Latin name that comes from I believe the Vulgate translation of the portion of scripture that discusses the fall of Satan. The real angelic name of Satan, as far as I know, is unknown, since in that scripture, he is addressed in sort of an apostrophe form with the morning star as a metaphorical "name". That's what I see anyway. He certainly did not acquire this good name after the Fall.

He pitied us after we were thrown out of eden, and he decided to go against god to help us. He brought us, as his 'new' name implies, light. He stole from God the light and brought it down to earth, thereby ending our punishment. God was furious, and cast Satan down from the heavens.

This does not offend me; it just shows me that you have been taught badly.

I wonder, if the Lord tells us to forgive, if love and kinship are so important, why did he cast such a harsh penalty upon one who was loyal to him? One
He was not loyal to Him.

Why do we hate him so much?
He is our accuser, and Christ our Defender. We do not like to be accused.

Why do we blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world?
I don't know - much of the credit for bad things should be given to men and women.

Why did the Lord cast him from the heavens?
He was cast out because he pretended to the throne of the Lord. At that point it had nothing to do with humans.

Why did he offer himself for us?
I'm not sure where you get this stuff. He didn't offer himself for us; he daily, hourly, seeks to destroy every one of us.

 

[elman]

Hello everyone.

I ask of you that you read my post with an open mind. I may offend some people. Know now that this is not my intent. If you feel offended, please post, so I can explain what I mean by the things I'm going to be saying.

I've been looking for answers to a few questions I've been carrying with me for some time. I don't know if this is the correct section to ask them, if it isn't I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with this forum.

I'm not really sure where to start, but I want to ask questions about good and evil, and more questions about evil at that.

So here goes,
The old Hebrew Torah (the old testament) tells us god had a certain angel serving him. He was referred to as 'The challenger' or 'The adversary'. His name was: שָׂטָן, which translates to The Satan, or his aforementioned titles. He was Gods punisher angel. He was sent to Earth to test the faith of us humans*. Satan once was, just as God, his angels angels and his heaven still are, perfect. He did as he was instructed, and served the Lord perfectly.

[*]: Job 1, The book of job


But then, on a certain day long ago, he rebelled against the Lord. Why did he do this/how could this be?

I can answer the first question for you. It is this deed that dubbed him 'Lucifer' which translates to 'the bringer of light'.

He pitied us after we were thrown out of eden, and he decided to go against god to help us. He brought us, as his 'new' name implies, light. He stole from God the light and brought it down to earth, thereby ending our punishment. God was furious, and cast Satan down from the heavens.

I wonder, if the Lord tells us to forgive, if love and kinship are so important, why did he cast such a harsh penalty upon one who was loyal to him? One who, if you think about it, could be compared to Jesus Christ[**]. Offering himself in much the same way Christ will do ages later.

[**]: Christ died for our sins, Lucifer must have known that the Lord would punish him for ending our punishment (for our sins) before the Lord deemed it was enough.

So here it goes:

Why do we hate him so much? Why do we blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world? (He is the Lords punisher angel after all) Why did the Lord cast him from the heavens? Why did he offer himself for us?

I ask of you again, before you post a reply, to think about what I've written here.

I believe in God and Jesus. I do not believe in
Satan. I think the book of Job teaches us that being righteous in this world does not mean we avoid the suffering and problems of being a mortal in this world. That lesson is, I believe, true. I don't believe all the details of the story to teach us that lesson is literally true.

 

[ittarter]

What makes you say that?

Find a single characteristic, other than their name, that both Satan in Job 1 and Satan in the New Testament share. (The only one I could find is that they are both earth-bound.)

They have a lot of different characteristics.

In Job, Satan is specifically allowed by God to do specific things. In the NT he is an independent agent.

In Job, Satan and God are on speaking terms, and Satan enters God's presence to ask permission to act. In the NT Satan could not possibly enter God's presence, because (e.g. Revelation 22) nothing unholy can enter the divine presence.

 

[talitha]

Find a single characteristic, other than their name, that both Satan in Job 1 and Satan in the New Testament share. (The only one I could find is that they are both earth-bound.)

They have a lot of different characteristics.

In Job, Satan is specifically allowed by God to do specific things. In the NT he is an independent agent.

In Job, Satan and God are on speaking terms, and Satan enters God's presence to ask permission to act. In the NT Satan could not possibly enter God's presence, because (e.g. Revelation 22) nothing unholy can enter the divine presence.

I know this was directed to razed, but I would like to put in my two cents. I think most people believe the Old Testament and the New Testament to be separate books, but I believe they are one. Many people do not have a balanced understanding of Satan's identity and function, and it's because they fail to consider both the Old and the New testament. I think it's interesting how they correlate, for example:
[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]
The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." (Job 1:7)

[/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8)
[/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[ittarter]

I know this was directed to razed, but I would like to put in my two cents. I think most people believe the Old Testament and the New Testament to be separate books, but I believe they are one. Many people do not have a balanced understanding of Satan's identity and function, and it's because they fail to consider both the Old and the New testament.

I believe that the Bible, the Old Testament, and the New Testament is each comprised of a heterogeneous set of books, letters, and collections of smaller texts. The English Bibles are marketed in such a way as to give the illusion of homogeneity, because otherwise very few would feel competent to read and interpret such a conglomeration of texts from such varied (and sometimes dubious) backgrounds, purposes and forms.

I think it's interesting how they correlate, for example:

The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." (Job 1:7)

Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. (1 Peter 5:8)

There is, in fact, very little correlation between the two. The only common ground I can find is that in both texts earthly locomotion is involved. However, to cite a single but notable example, the word "adversary" (Gk. antidikos), associated with an opponent in a legal lawsuit, brings to mind a sort of world-wide or even cosmic battle between God and the devil, in which both parties are vying to increase their own respective kingdom. In Job, no such conflict exists. Satan is merely an extension of God's own activity, a subordinate agent who does as he is told.

Other contrastive examples for these two passages (not to mention others) could be cited, but, you get the point. It's not for lack of information that I see such striking differences between Job's Satan and the New Testament's Satan/devil. To say that they're the same simply because both characters have feet is, I would suggest, missing the forest for the trees.

 

[Zebra1552]

Hello everyone.

I ask of you that you read my post with an open mind. I may offend some people. Know now that this is not my intent. If you feel offended, please post, so I can explain what I mean by the things I'm going to be saying.

If you're starting with that you may want to look at whether the theology of what you're saying is sound.

I'm not really sure where to start, but I want to ask questions about good and evil, and more questions about evil at that.

So here goes,
The old Hebrew Torah (the old testament) tells us god had a certain angel serving him. He was referred to as 'The challenger' or 'The adversary'. His name was: שָׂטָן, which translates to The Satan, or his aforementioned titles. He was Gods punisher angel. He was sent to Earth to test the faith of us humans*. Satan once was, just as God, his angels angels and his heaven still are, perfect. He did as he was instructed, and served the Lord perfectly.

First of all, there is nothing in the Bible to my knowledge that the angels are perfect, 'as God', or that Satan was God's punisher angel. It sounds like you're mixing Greek mythology and Hades with Christianity and Satan.

[*]: Job 1, The book of job


But then, on a certain day long ago, he rebelled against the Lord. Why did he do this/how could this be?

I can answer the first question for you. It is this deed that dubbed him 'Lucifer' which translates to 'the bringer of light'.

Actually, you cannot answer that question if you're starting with a mistranslation from Hebrew. The only place in the Bible with that name is here:

Isa 14:4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon: How the oppressor has ceased! How his insolence has ceased!
Isa 14:5 The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers,
Isa 14:6 that struck down the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution.
Isa 14:7 The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing.
Isa 14:8 The cypresses exult over you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, "Since you were laid low, no one comes to cut us down."
Isa 14:9 Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations.
Isa 14:10 All of them will speak and say to you: "You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!"
Isa 14:11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the sound of your harps; maggots are the bed beneath you, and worms are your covering.
Isa 14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!
Isa 14:13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit on the mount of assembly on the heights of Zaphon;
Isa 14:14 I will ascend to the tops of the clouds, I will make myself like the Most High."
Isa 14:15 But you are brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit.

First verse: Take up this taunt against the King of Babylon.

It's not talking about an angel, it's talking about a man who let his pride get to him.

He pitied us after we were thrown out of eden, and he decided to go against god to help us. He brought us, as his 'new' name implies, light. He stole from God the light and brought it down to earth, thereby ending our punishment. God was furious, and cast Satan down from the heavens.

Straw man argument. First of all, this twisted theology is based on a verse that is twisted out of context making the conclusion flawed. Secondly, it's mostly speculation. If you have anything solid that is actually in the Bible, I might be interested.

I wonder, if the Lord tells us to forgive, if love and kinship are so important, why did he cast such a harsh penalty upon one who was loyal to him? One who, if you think about it, could be compared to Jesus Christ[**]. Offering himself in much the same way Christ will do ages later.

Satan was NOT loyal to God. Satan not only tempted man to disobey God, he actively tries to make people disobey God. We see this with Jesus being tempted in the desert and throughout Scripture- in Job, for example.

[**]: Christ died for our sins, Lucifer must have known that the Lord would punish him for ending our punishment (for our sins) before the Lord deemed it was enough.

More speculation that is built on speculation that is built on twisting Bible verses out of context is speculation that has no support to it.

So here it goes:

Why do we hate him so much? Why do we blame him for all the bad things that happen in this world?

(He is the Lords punisher angel after all) Why did the Lord cast him from the heavens? Why did he offer himself for us?

I ask of you again, before you post a reply, to think about what I've written here.

Because Satan is partly responsible for the bad things that happen in this world. God cast him out because he not only disobeyed God, he brought others to do the same. As for your last question, he didn't.

I encourage you to actually read your Bible rather than listening to what others say about it.