Mother's Regret Transitioning Children

[ThatRobGuy]

Which were also based on that quote.

I wonder why she even made that quote. Either the organization isn't particularly ashamed of the implication, or as mentioned before, perhaps the attorney for the hospital was asleep at the wheel when that statement was introduced in court.

I would have to think that an organization of that size has some fairly solid lawyers at their service. If the judge was expressing that concern as a result of that statement, and it was something where the context was being misconstrued in anyway, I would have to imagine any lawyer worth their salt would've pounced on that.

Perhaps cause for concern, but not evidence of anything.

Correct. However, even expressing the concern is getting people the "transphobic/hatemonger" label.

Looking for similarities between scenarios and observing patterns, and considering extraneous aspects is a more thoughtful approach than what some people in this thread are doing (not you, but if you look, there are others in this thread doing it), which is jumping to the immediate conclusion that "if someone provides any example that makes gender affirming care for youths look bad or calls the practice into question, it must be an entirely made up story and right-wing propaganda".

Irrelevant, as it does not pertain to the actions of Cincinatti Children's.

Look, I can completely understand wanting to proceed with an abundance of caution, and there are definitely things worth questioning and/or investigating when it comes to gender treatment, but you're going to great lengths to contrive "what if" scenarios at Cincinatti Children's to support that narrative.

It's not irrelevant when taking into account that both children's hospitals are touting the same accreditation/"stamp of approval" and practice guidelines from the same issuing authority.

Both organizations provide this link and tout that their practices are following these guidelines

Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence Guideline Resources

The 2017 Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons is an update to the 2009 version, which establishes and standardizes the terminology and safe treatment of gender dysphoric/gender-incongruent persons and reaffirming the role of endocrinologists.

www.endocrine.org

And if you do a Google search on the names of the folks who were involved in developing those guidelines and read the medical journals and studies they were affiliated with, you'll notice a pattern.

A few of them, and there's no other way of putting this that sounds pleasant, had no qualms with basically using adolescents as lab rats in some of their clinical trials.

These aren't purely speculative "what if?" scenarios.


If we were to take this topic off of the table and discuss it in the context of another industry/sector that wasn't so heavily polarized, people would likely see it very differently.

For instance, if there were an investment firm that was currently under investigation for fraud for potentially engaging in a ponzi scheme, and another firm was showing many of the same earmarks, and both got their "stamp of approval" for "business ethics guidelines" from the same issuing civil regulatory entity. It wouldn't be out of line to have to some serious questions about the other institution.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

I wonder why she even made that quote. Either the organization isn't particularly ashamed of the implication, or as mentioned before, perhaps the attorney for the hospital was asleep at the wheel when that statement was introduced in court.

I would have to think that an organization of that size has some fairly solid lawyers at their service. If the judge was expressing that concern as a result of that statement, and it was something where the context was being misconstrued in anyway, I would have to imagine any lawyer worth their salt would've pounced on that.

I don't think that statement was made as part of courtroom testimony. As far as I can tell, it was either something that the judge had heard or a public statement introduced by the parents' lawyer - at least, it reads like standard "PR speak." If it was actually a statement made in court and no one thought to clarify what was meant by "gender treatment" or ask for statistics on actual treatment courses, then someone majorly screwed up.

It's not irrelevant when taking into account that both children's hospitals are touting the same accreditation/"stamp of approval" and practice guidelines from the same issuing authority.

It's irrelevant in the sense that something occurring in one place does not mean that it is occurring in another place. I've stated multiple times that I agree that the circumstances and statements make this worth looking into. However, you're taking it a step further and saying that there's definitely something wrong going on there.

For instance, if there were an investment firm that was currently under investigation for fraud for potentially engaging in a ponzi scheme, and another firm was showing many of the same earmarks, and both got their "stamp of approval" for "business ethics guidelines" from the same issuing civil regulatory entity. It wouldn't be out of line to have to some serious questions about the other institution.

Questions, yes. Accusations of fraud based on that alone though? No. You've passed the first one and gone straight for the second.

 

[Servus]

It is an odd story in that the mother(s) let a 4 year old decide what to be - which is ridiculously young.
IF the story is real, which is questionable.

Even if the story isn't real, the fact that it could be real these days is pretty disturbing.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Even if the story isn't real, the fact that it could be real these days is pretty disturbing.

It rang false.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It's irrelevant in the sense that something occurring in one place does not mean that it is occurring in another place. I've stated multiple times that I agree that the circumstances and statements make this worth looking into. However, you're taking it a step further and saying that there's definitely something wrong going on there.

Actually, I've never said that it was 100% certain that Cincy Children's hospital was engaging in any wrongdoing.

I just said it was suspicious.

Per my previous post, there have been numerous posts in this thread that seemingly jumped to the conclusion that the story from the OP must be "fabricated", based on the simple fact that it doesn't conform to the narrative they uphold. I think I'm giving the Children's hospital more courtesy and room for flexibility than people in that camp are doing.


And it's not irrelevant (with regards to other, almost identical, institutions) engaging in the same sort of shenanigans.

I have no doubts that if it was uncovered that one oil company was engaging in an unethical business practice based on a loophole of some sort, that people would freely and willingly accept that other oil companies could be engaging in the same type of practices.

And it doesn't even have to be that specific. Take something more broad like taxes...the fact that there's a pattern of uber rich people exploiting tax loopholes, people freely accept the reality that most uber rich people find ways to get out of paying taxes.

There needs to be some consistency with regards to patterns dictating the likelihood of problematic practices and public perceptions.

Questions, yes. Accusations of fraud based on that alone though? No. You've passed the first one and gone straight for the second.

So then why do people rush to the defense of their side with counter-accusations when questions are being asked?

If it's perfectly legitimate to ask questions about something new...then when questions are asked, why is it met with a tone of "you must be a bigot if you don't get 100% on board with this new thing"?

 

[SilverBear]

The fact that 100% get treatment there and and that kids are transitioned there is enough to condemn the hospital. Any hospital that provides for transitioning of children deserves condemnation period. It's not ever right to castrate or mutilate kids.

Evidence that the hospital is doing anything of the sort?

 

[rjs330]

Evidence that the hospital is doing anything of the sort?

The hospital site describes they follow the the gender dysphoria and gender incongruence guidelines. Those guidelines allow for chemically castrating kids with gender drugs and also support surgeries for kids.

Gender Dysphoria/Gender Incongruence Guideline Resources

The 2017 Endocrine Treatment of Gender-Dysphoric/Gender-Incongruent Persons is an update to the 2009 version, which establishes and standardizes the terminology and safe treatment of gender dysphoric/gender-incongruent persons and reaffirming the role of endocrinologists.

www.endocrine.org

Here is what the guidelines say.

2.1. We suggest that adolescents who meet diagnostic criteria for GD/gender incongruence, fulfill criteria for treatment, and are requesting treatment should initially undergo treatment to suppress pubertal development. (2 |⊕⊕OO)
2.2. We suggest that clinicians begin pubertal hormone suppression after girls and boys first exhibit physical changes of puberty.
So we know what they are doing chemically.

They also recommend waiting until 18 as an age fro surgeries. But it is a RECOMMENDATION only and admit that they believe there is no requirement to follow it and there is nothing to say they shouldn't do surgeries on minors.


We suggest that clinicians delay gender-affirming genital surgery involving gonadectomy and/or hysterectomy until the patient is at least 18 years old or legal age of majority in his or her country. (2 |⊕⊕OO).
5.6. We suggest that clinicians determine the timing of breast surgery for transgender males based upon the physical and mental health status of the individual. There is insufficient evidence to recommend a specific age requirement.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A lesbian couple raised two boys following the gender neutral ideology with letting the boys decide if they were boys or girls. As the boys grew older one of them started demanding to know what he was and he was told he could decide if he was a boy or a girl. The boy then decided he wanted to be a girl. His decision affected his younger brother who then decided he wanted to be a girl. They then transitioned the boys including changing their names.

Eventually the mother's realized that what they did was harming the children and they informed the boys they were boys, not girls and de-transitioned them. The de-transition was a bit challenging, but the boys are now thriving and doing very well being the sex they were born as. This is part of what she said.
The boys, now eight and nine, are now "happy and thriving," she said. But Rose said she still lives with regrets about the harm she inflicted on them and may have continued to inflict, if she and her "partner" had not radically changed their approach to parenting.

"When I look back at this, it is almost too much to write about," she stated. "The grief and the shock of what we did is so deep, so wide, so sharp and penetrating. How could a mother do this to her child? To her children? I truly believed that what I was doing was pure, right and good, only to later realize with horror what it could have lead to for my child.

"This horror still shakes me to my core," she said.

Mother regrets socially transitioning 4-year-old son to a girl: 'Like leaving a cult' | Blaze Media

A self-described former "true believer" in gender ideology has publicly admitted that she regrets "leading" her son to transition into a girl when he was just four years old.A woman and mother, identified only as Rose, recently discussed her story on the podcast "TRIGGERnometry," hosted by...

www.theblaze.com

First of all....good for these parents who were brave enough to both understand they were making a mistake and taking corrections to fix it. There's a lot of pressure out there for people who want to "virtue signal" and fit in with their peer group (especially when your peer group is the larger LGBTQ community).

One might be inclined to think that peer pressure wouldn't lead one to make stupid health decisions, but no matter what side you fell on in 2020-21...chances are you supported some pretty dumb stuff one way or the other.


Secondly....good for them in their willingness to come forward and talk about their mistakes with the larger society. They will undoubtedly be ostracized and maligned by people who they thought were friends. This is a group that tends to be very unforgiving towards other viewpoints and would rather have seen permanent damage done to those boys than admit to their own foolishness.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Evidence that the hospital is doing anything of the sort?

The APA acknowledges that the affirmative care model can lead to sterilization of children (aka the inability to have children).

What more evidence do you need?

 

[rambot]

A lesbian couple raised two boys following the gender neutral ideology with letting the boys decide if they were boys or girls. As the boys grew older one of them started demanding to know what he was and he was told he could decide if he was a boy or a girl. The boy then decided he wanted to be a girl. His decision affected his younger brother who then decided he wanted to be a girl. They then transitioned the boys including changing their names.

Eventually the mother's realized that what they did was harming the children and they informed the boys they were boys, not girls and de-transitioned them. The de-transition was a bit challenging, but the boys are now thriving and doing very well being the sex they were born as. This is part of what she said.
The boys, now eight and nine, are now "happy and thriving," she said. But Rose said she still lives with regrets about the harm she inflicted on them and may have continued to inflict, if she and her "partner" had not radically changed their approach to parenting.

"When I look back at this, it is almost too much to write about," she stated. "The grief and the shock of what we did is so deep, so wide, so sharp and penetrating. How could a mother do this to her child? To her children? I truly believed that what I was doing was pure, right and good, only to later realize with horror what it could have lead to for my child.

"This horror still shakes me to my core," she said.

Mother regrets socially transitioning 4-year-old son to a girl: 'Like leaving a cult' | Blaze Media

A self-described former "true believer" in gender ideology has publicly admitted that she regrets "leading" her son to transition into a girl when he was just four years old.A woman and mother, identified only as Rose, recently discussed her story on the podcast "TRIGGERnometry," hosted by...

www.theblaze.com

Cornell 16 year literature review on regret

If we were to use these rates and extrapolate, I'd easily be able to find 50 people happy with their transition for this 1 you put up against that transition.

This is just an interesting article on detransitioners

 

[Ana the Ist]

There are a few people on Youtube, mostly female-to-male, that discuss their detransition stories. They are still a tiny minority. They don't receive appreciable amounts of hate from the trans community, from what I've seen, quite the opposite. Most trans people I've known see their transitions as very private and see gender transition as an individual matter, and not casually undertaken.

There was a special to be aired on NBC I think regarding gender clinics and their increasing popularity, etc. They also intended to air a segment on detransitioners....which was a substantial part of the special (20-30 minutes if I remember correctly).

After repeated threats and attacks....the segment was cut down to 5 minutes with many detransitioners edited out entirely.

The trans activists community uses tactics that I don't approve of....and as such, I've taken a position of opposing them on literally everything except treatment as an adult.

 

[rambot]

There was a special to be aired on NBC I think regarding gender clinics and their increasing popularity, etc. They also intended to air a segment on detransitioners....which was a substantial part of the special (20-30 minutes if I remember correctly).

After repeated threats and attacks....the segment was cut down to 5 minutes with many detransitioners edited out entirely.

The trans activists community uses tactics that I don't approve of....and as such, I've taken a position of opposing them on literally everything except treatment as an adult.

That sounds about right?

Detransitioners represent 4ish% of all transitioners. Sounds like 5 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to allocate to a small population like htat.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Secondly....good for them in their willingness to come forward and talk about their mistakes with the larger society. They will undoubtedly be ostracized and maligned by people who they thought were friends. This is a group that tends to be very unforgiving towards other viewpoints and would rather have seen permanent damage done to those boys than admit to their own foolishness.

This is the part of your post I'd put emphasis on...

Whether it's because of ego, pride, or fear of ostracization, people don't seem to want to admit that "maybe we jumped the gun on something", especially when expressing that can be considered deeply unpopular and even get some branded with the scarlet letter of "B" for "Bigot".

There are people who are in the LGBT community who have changed their tune on this after the fact (see the article I posted earlier about the woman who worked for such a clinic in St. Louis, that's now under investigation), who now say "Yeah, maybe it was a bit overly naive to jump in the deep end with regards to children", and they get labelled as the LGBT equivalent of a "RINO" when they express such views.

What's even more ironic is that the countries (that far-left progressives in the US claim we should emulate in every other aspect of society) have opted to pump the brakes on this with regards to kids, and that seems to be the one area where US far-left progressives don't seem to want to follow their lead).


Part of me thinks that some of it is a tit-for-tat thing...US conservatives have been trying to "own the libs" so much, that I think some US liberals have responded by trying to "own the conservs" by getting on board with anything that they know agitates the other side.

It makes for a toxic political environment.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Detransitioners represent 4ish% of all transitioners. Sounds like 5 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to allocate to a small population like htat.

In all fairness, while it's true that a very small percentage actually "detransition", that's not synonymous with "regretting the decision".

If someone has already spent countless dollars and transitioned, to the point where they may not even be able to go back (for instance if they've already had bottom surgery), they're pretty much stuck with the path of least resistance in terms of "fitting in to society" which means sticking with it even if they regret their decision.

Or, to put in more bluntly...if you've already had your penis chopped off and had breast implants and been taking feminizing hormones for 5-10 years, you're kind of at the point of no return so a true "detransition" isn't even an option even if you regret the initial decision....at that point, if you have any hope of wanting to "fit in", you're easiest option is to continue identifying as a woman.

 

[Ana the Ist]

This is the part of your post I'd put emphasis on...

Whether it's because of ego, pride, or fear of ostracization, people don't seem to want to admit that "maybe we jumped the gun on something", especially when expressing that can be considered deeply unpopular and even get some branded with the scarlet letter of "B" for "Bigot".

There are people who are in the LGBT community who have changed their tune on this after the fact (see the article I posted earlier about the woman who worked for such a clinic in St. Louis, that's now under investigation), who now say "Yeah, maybe it was a bit overly naive to jump in the deep end with regards to children", and they get labelled as the LGBT equivalent of a "RINO" when they express such views.

What's even more ironic is that the countries (that far-left progressives in the US claim we should emulate in every other aspect of society) have opted to pump the brakes on this with regards to kids, and that seems to be the one area where US far-left progressives don't seem to want to follow their lead).


Part of me thinks that some of it is a tit-for-tat thing...US conservatives have been trying to "own the libs" so much, that I think some US liberals have responded by trying to "own the conservs" by getting on board with anything that they know agitates the other side.

It makes for a toxic political environment.

I posted an article yesterday called "The Fox News Fallacy" wherein a liberal reporter expressed what he noticed was a pattern of the left to dismiss any issue reported on extensively by Fox News or other right wing outlets as outrage manufacturing or hoaxes. He used CRT, the gender ideology stuff, and the border crisis....because they aren't covered extensively in left wing outlets. I've seen that attitude on here.

There was a particularly ugly story where a gay couple had been raising their two adopted boys to be raped and pimped out to pedophiles that was ugly and suspicious for a lot of reasons. I didn't post the article, because frankly, I didn't want it used to advance an agenda....they don't represent most gay parents who already struggle with adopting children.

People don't give you credit for the threads you don't make though.

 

[Bradskii]

Coming soon, to a thread near you!

'And these 'parents' only want this farce of a marriage so that they can adopt young children and groom them to farm them out to be raped by paedophiles. And yes it's true. There was an article about it. Is that what you want?

I didn't post the article, because frankly, I didn't want it used to advance an agenda...

Well, you didn't really need to, did you. Casual mentions of isolated incidents are more than sufficient for most people to denigrate whole sections of society these days.

 

[rambot]

In all fairness, while it's true that a very small percentage actually "detransition", that's not synonymous with "regretting the decision".

If someone has already spent countless dollars and transitioned, to the point where they may not even be able to go back (for instance if they've already had bottom surgery), they're pretty much stuck with the path of least resistance in terms of "fitting in to society" which means sticking with it even if they regret their decision.

Or, to put in more bluntly...if you've already had your penis chopped off and had breast implants and been taking feminizing hormones for 5-10 years, you're kind of at the point of no return so a true "detransition" isn't even an option even if you regret the initial decision....at that point, if you have any hope of wanting to "fit in", you're easiest option is to continue identifying as a woman.

but....but what if the other 96% are just...happy?

Why can't we just allow that to be true?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That sounds about right?

Detransitioners represent 4ish% of all transitioners. Sounds like 5 minutes is a reasonable amount of time to allocate to a small population like htat.

Why? You should only get the airtime based on your percentage of the population?

Sadly, there's no long term studies on detransitioners so we don't actually know how much of the population they represent.

Nonetheless, since we don't hear from them and many people don't believe they actually exist....it's entirely possible they make up a much larger portion of the trans community than 5%.

But hey....I could be remembering it wrong....

Detrans Youth Stories they Didn't Want you to Hear, in 60 Minutes, or Less.

Someday this Orwellian chapter will end and people will be shocked that they were ever sold on the idea of slicing off the sex organs of kids. But the eerie echo of propaganda will remain—a reminder of how easily humanity can be sold on the inhumane.

thevelvetchronicle.com

Oh OK, yeah....I was mistaken. The entire show was supposed to be about detransitioners. They got edited out of the majority of it....because of trans activists.

Let me ask you something....

If the thing you're advocating for cannot allow alternative viewpoints to express themselves, alternative explanations to be considered, and attempts to silence people with those viewpoints and explanations.....do you think it's still a good idea to advocate for that thing?

I mean we saw how BLM turned out....they didn't want to debate any causes, examine other possibilities that didn't blame police, and we all know that if you pointed out that any other lives mattered or that perhaps we should look into the "culture" of the black community....

Well those things got you labeled a racist and "part of the problem" or "on the wrong side of history".

Now, of course, we know that BLM was largely a scam run by black lesbian Marxists and it's only real goal was to separate gullible white people from their money....even if no one really wants to discuss it now.

Then you had the MeToo movement which swiftly went from "believe victims" to "believe all women" and of course....we had a similar group of people such as yourself proclaiming that "there's so few false accusations that they aren't even worth discussing" much like these detransitioners. To say that movement failed would be putting it mildly. Cosby got out of jail....Weinstein is still walking around free....and a bunch of minor celebrities and professionals who had a bad date or were the subject of false allegations lost jobs, opportunities, and in one case I remember....killed themselves. Ever since then, women find it a little bit tougher to climb the corporate ladder since men don't want to work with them out of a justified fear that they'll be considered guilty and won't be able to prove their innocence.

In both cases, the people who were stirring up a fuss and making demands on society didn't want anyone who had any alternative viewpoint or explanation to even get a chance to speak....and when they did, they were labeled bigots for it.

Given that the current crop of activists looks and sounds so much like the previous two crops of activists.....and given that those previous activists were part of the problem and on the wrong side of history and committed grave injustices damaging the communities they were advocating for....

Are you at all even a little concerned about the possibility that you're wrong on this issue....again....and the damage you are likely supporting is happening to children?

I mean it's one thing to damage the police in black communities and tarnish the name of black activist movements for the rest of our lives.....and it's one thing to entertain the hazy memories of female opportunists while throwing away any presumptions of innocence for the poor men between them and large cash settlements or the job they wanted but didn't deserve.....

But given that this time your victims will be children seeking answers....

Do you ever stop to consider what sort of response you'll give when they ask why you supported this? It's not going to take a genius to figure out that it's the same group of citizens who keep falling for the same hokum. I know if they come to me, I'll suggest they seek reparations....from the folks who either made this possible or defended it out of some undeserved sense or moral righteousness.

 

[Ana the Ist]

In all fairness, while it's true that a very small percentage actually "detransition", that's not synonymous with "regretting the decision".

If someone has already spent countless dollars and transitioned, to the point where they may not even be able to go back (for instance if they've already had bottom surgery), they're pretty much stuck with the path of least resistance in terms of "fitting in to society" which means sticking with it even if they regret their decision.

Or, to put in more bluntly...if you've already had your penis chopped off and had breast implants and been taking feminizing hormones for 5-10 years, you're kind of at the point of no return so a true "detransition" isn't even an option even if you regret the initial decision....at that point, if you have any hope of wanting to "fit in", you're easiest option is to continue identifying as a woman.

Hey, remember that small exchange we had regarding "debate" and how few on the left are willing to debate anymore?

Did you see Ana (Kasperian?) Of TYT talk with Ben Shapiro recently?

I only saw a clip of her explaining why she was willing to sit down with him and my jaw dropped. I really hope she and Ben didn't go at each other too hard.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Coming soon, to a thread near you!

'And these 'parents' only want this farce of a marriage so that they can adopt young children and groom them to farm them out to be raped by paedophiles. And yes it's true. There was an article about it. Is that what you want?



Well, you didn't really need to, did you. Casual mentions of isolated incidents are more than sufficient for most people to denigrate whole sections of society these days.

You know what? I forgot that half of the population had suddenly abandoned all common sense and belonged in the "catastrophically stupid" category that treats anecdotes as "personal truths" which automatically apply to anyone else who shares a bare minimum of superficial characteristics like skin color (eg. White privilege/colonizers) or sexuality (eg heteronormative) or a combination of said characteristics (white Christian male/patriarchal colonizers).

If you think the damage is already done, just say so....I'll start up the thread. We can explore why this one adoption agency ignored the criminal history of these child predators and what might have motivated them to do so.