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Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

MKJ

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The problem with that is it leads to a false dichotomy.

Too many times I hear Protestants refer to "Christians and Catholics". Catholics are Chrisitan.

In general, if your church adheres to sola fide, and sola scriptura, you're a Protestant

What I would tend to say is that if someones theology is clearly linked to the theological traditions that come out of the various parts of the Reformation, they are a Protestant.

So far, all the people I have talked to who said they were not Protestants met this test - their theology is clearly descended from Reformation theology.
 
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Isolation

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Well, if lists are not going to be compared, then what do you think of this comparision argument?

Apostolic Churches: Longer timeframe (2000 years), larger geographical distribution (East,West), more uniformity of belief, less division (sects).

Sola Scriptura Churches: Shorter timeframe (500 years), smaller geographical distribution (West), less uniformity of belief, more division (sects).

Would anyone like to propose a counter argument to this?
you're assuming it's built on a good foundation
 
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Montalban

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What I would tend to say is that if someones theology is clearly linked to the theological traditions that come out of the various parts of the Reformation, they are a Protestant.

So far, all the people I have talked to who said they were not Protestants met this test - their theology is clearly descended from Reformation theology.

The problem as I see it is that some people's churches haven't sprung directly from the 'traditional' Protestant churches and therefore they don't see the connection between their churches and the original Protestant movements
 
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Montalban

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you're assuming it's built on a good foundation

Jesus laid those foundations. He said to Peter "Upon this rock", and the Apostles all are 'the foundation' with Jesus as the chief 'corner-stone'
Ephesians 2:20
 
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Isolation

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Jesus laid those foundations. He said to Peter "Upon this rock", and the Apostles all are 'the foundation' with Jesus as the chief 'corner-stone'
Ephesians 2:20
and this church, built in 300ad, when in the apostles time on this earth had problems with many heretics.... could of built their foundation on a heretic
 
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Montalban

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and this church, built in 300ad, when in the apostles time on this earth had problems with many heretics.... could of built their foundation on a heretic

I've heard this so many times, never substantiated, that the church became corrupted, or changed sometime during the reign of Constantine.

It's ironic you should mention it, but it's part of Protestant lore.

The whole reason for Protstantism is to 'get back' to the original church, by suggesting that the church had changed from that original church. That is, in order to have reformers you need to show that the church needed repair/reform.

It takes no account of the Orthodox Church, because Protestantism defines itself in terms of Catholicism.
 
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Isolation

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I've heard this so many times, never substantiated, that the church became corrupted, or changed sometime during the reign of Constantine.

It's ironic you should mention it, but it's part of Protestant lore.

The whole reason for Protstantism is to 'get back' to the original church, by suggesting that the church had changed from that original church. That is, in order to have reformers you need to show that the church needed repair/reform.

It takes no account of the Orthodox Church, because Protestantism defines itself in terms of Catholicism.
EO to me is basically the same,
I do not know the differences
The faiths are basically the same
 
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lovernotafighter

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Well, if lists are not going to be compared, then what do you think of this comparision argument?

Apostolic Churches: Longer timeframe (2000 years), larger geographical distribution (East,West), more uniformity of belief, less division (sects).

Sola Scriptura Churches: Shorter timeframe (500 years), smaller geographical distribution (West), less uniformity of belief, more division (sects).

Would anyone like to propose a counter argument to this?

Who said Sola Scriptura churches are just in the West??
:confused:
 
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hedrick

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This is what always gets me though; you can't really say that the extremely liberal/conservative Lutheran/Reformed churches aren't actually Lutheran or Reformed.


Why should I want to? They are simply liberal and conservative members of those traditions, just as there are liberal and conservative Catholics.

Another example is how some Baptists congregations claim to be Reformed, but yet they belong to a Baptist convention; so you're forced to wonder whether they are Baptist or Reformed.

As far as I know the Reformed Baptists are actually Reformed, although they differ from the rest of us on baptism.

I'm not trying to be rude but the ambiguity in Protestantism about what Protestants as a whole believe really bugs me. They are very few doctrines that you can state that Protestants believe without someone saying "not all Protestants believe that."

Again, this depends upon who you consider Protestant. There is a core of Protestant belief, which is roughly Nicea, Chalcedon, justification by faith, and sola scripture. Within this core there are differences, but they don't exceed differences that have occurred within the Catholic tradition.

There have certainly been variations on when to baptize. Uniform infant baptism did finally occur, but mostly because of a superstitious fear of unbaptized children ending up in limbo, just as a fair amount of adult baptism occurred because of the weird early church idea that you couldn't be forgiven of serious sins after baptism.* Frankly I'd rather tolerate the Baptists.

Indeed there's a lot to be said for the Church preserving both traditions. They emphasize different things, both of which are important: God's prevenient grace and the importance of responding to God's call in faith. The only mainstream Protestant group I know of that doesn't baptize at all is the Salvation Army. While I think that was an overreaction, I understand where it came from, and I'm happy to count the Army as part of the Protestant tradition. (Many Friends also don't baptize, but despite my great admiration for them, and my thankfulness that the tradition exists, I don't consider them part of the mainstream Protestant Church.)

Basically I think where we differ is that I'd rather see some variation within a tradition that I think is basically right than conformity within one that I think is wrong. I would take any church in the mainstream Protestant tradition in preference to the Catholic Church. And I'm pretty familiar with the variation there. I also think you're papering over divisions within the Catholic community.

I agree that sola scripture does not produce doctrinal conformity. My own interpretation is that this is because Scripture wasn't designed to do so. I'm willing to accept the variation within the sola scripture churches as a sign that maybe God isn't so focused on doctrine as the Catholic tradition is, and that maybe he'd rather see unity in our loyalty to Christ than in our organization. Indeed I see the Reformation as a replay of the Tower of Babel: an attempt to curb the pride of an organization that had confused itself with the Kingdom of God. Perhaps having lots of languages is inconvenient, but God saw it as protecting against a more serious danger.

Indeed I think having many Christian traditions is a good thing. We all have much to learn from most of the Protestant (and Catholic traditions), and I would hate to see them reduced in a single mass of conformity. I look forward to moderation of the weirdnesses in the LDS and JW's as well. I think more orthodox variants of their tradition would add something to the Church. I don't doubt that it will happen, although probably not during my lifetime. (I just barely avoided saying that I want to add their distinctiveness to our own. Trekkies will understand.)
 
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Ortho_Cat

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Sure.

Apostolic Churches: longer timeframe, greater timeframe under centralized authorities, more uniformity of teachings developed during their periods of association.

Sola Scriptura Churches: shorter timeframe, dramatically more information distribution about what Apostolic writings actually said, wider spread of those doctrines andinterpretations among their people, and divisions triggered by the desire to preserve and project those views over against those doctrines perceived to not be supported by what the Apostles wrote. Tendency to reduce the number of unsupported doctrines and increase the value of clearly-written Apostolic teaching. Lack of central authority structure due to lack of a clear authority structure during the Apostolic period. Central consideration of Scriptural text and unity over those items.

The direction of AS churches is natural, but grows doctrines that aren't always Apostolic. The direction of SS churches is natural, but removes doctrines that aren't clearly Apostolic.

Apostolic Successionists might also have trouble dealing with the Elizabethan and Cromwell period with respect to the Anglican church.

Yet they cannot agree amongst themselves what the correct doctrines are, because the ultimate authority lies is in the individual interpretation, each of which is just as valid as another.

The only way to circumvent this issue is to recognize the authority Christ placed in his apostles, who subsequently handed their authority down to their successors to guide the church and guard her doctrines. (IMO)
 
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Ortho_Cat

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List for me all the non-EO denominations that agree with the EO in all matters....

Hmm I could ask the same question for Lutherans? :confused: Don't really see the point here...what I am addressing in this thread is the degree of division or uniformity amongst the churches which have apostolic origin and those who embrace sola scriptura...
 
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mark46

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You might simply have said that the 2 groups were apostolic churches and non-apostolic churches.

You add nothing to the distinction other than bring us the possibility of several groups of non-apostolic churches, some of which meet a definition of embracing sola scriptura (however defined) and those who do not.

Hmm I could ask the same question for Lutherans? :confused: Don't really see the point here...what I am addressing in this thread is the degree of division or uniformity amongst the churches which have apostolic origin and those who embrace sola scriptura...
 
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Ortho_Cat

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The problem with that is it leads to a false dichotomy.

Too many times I hear Protestants refer to "Christians and Catholics". Catholics are Chrisitan.

In general, if your church adheres to sola fide, and sola scriptura, you're a Protestant


Not according to my brother... :(
 
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